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(CW: Racism) Turanist comm on db0 (lemmy.dbzer0.com)
submitted 3 weeks ago by mathemachristian@hexbear.net to c/div0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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For those who are not clued into the intricacies of turkish (ethno-)nationalism, turanism is kind of like the odin-flavored racism in germany. They hate arabs so much they reject Islam (which is otherwise pretty core to turkish nationalism) because it's an "arab religion". It's in a (not so coincidentally) similar vein to the odin-racists hating jews so much that they reject christianity due to it being a "semitic religion". I could get into it more if needed but if you also browse the articles about the grey wolves (why are they called that 🤔) it should be fairly clear why that comm is a fascist op that is now being spread on lemmy

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[–] Stamets@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

It seems like you're making a ridiculous leap.

The community in question is news about the Turkic Peoples.

Your wikipedia is for Turanism, which is (according to that link), a movement built around nonsense scientific claims that there are connections between various Eurasian Ethnic groups, the Turkic peoples being one of those groups.

The other link is for the Grey Wolves which is a far-right nationalistic group that want to unite Turkic people in a single large state, basically their own empire.

The community, as far as I can tell, just posts mostly news about Turkic peoples.

Fairly clear why that comm is a fascist op

It is not remotely clear. Do you have literally any evidence of this type of behavior on that community? Or are you claiming that the existence of a community for Turkic peoples is, by its very existence, a fascist op? I'd prefer more of an actual example of how the community is what you claim. This is extremely half-baked and, I'ma be real, comes off as kind of racist? Not sure how else to parse the claim that a community for an ethnic group is secretly a fascistic op, just trust me bro...

Edit: Is this just because you had a post removed from there?

[–] mathemachristian@hexbear.net 0 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

No this is because I grew up in Turkey as a christian and foreigner lol. I know about the ülkücüler because I had to, not that we were in particular danger mind you, but we occasionally had the windows of our church smashed. I can go more in depth some other time, maybe. It's kinda hard to explain to westerners tbh because it's a rather particular mindset tbh and this whole "turkic nations" thing is part of the racist background hum that permeates turkish society. Like how would you explain how some clearly racist european communities that seemingly just celebrate "european culture" are actually racist to, say, a chinese person. Take the sub name for instance, the name of some bygone nation that beget a bunch of others. The only relation these nations have nowadays have to Turkey (which is clearly important to that sub) is that their governments kind of descended from the same one. But they will claim some blood kinship, and think it's very important because this is a deeply racist movement.

I think people forget that the ottoman empire fell only about 100 years ago, that it even controlled a huge part of europe in the 19th century. A lot of the race-"science" from europe made it's way to Turkey and this "turkic brethren" shit is an outgrowth of that. Turkey had it's own genocides in the 20th century that it still denies, these brainworms were never dealt with but are swept under the rug and allowed or sometimes even encouraged to fester. You have schoolchildren every day before school, stand at attention in military formations by class, sing the national anthem and when i went to school there, the entire school around me swore (this oath)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_Oath_%28Turkey%29]. The shit I heard some Kemalists (these are the liberals) during the big arab spring refugee migrations about the (arab) refugees would have made been right at home at the AfD.

Not that I want to portray Turkey as a cartoonishly racist country, there is a lot of nuances, especially since it's not a white country and a muslim country that is getting exploited by europe and the US, that come into play. The people are generally speaking very friendly and the country is beautiful. It's not more racist than any other european nation, but it's not that far behind them either. It was an imperial country that dominated and subjugated many nations and deserves to be named in the same breath as France, Britain, Germany etc. and the brainworms that come from that are similar.

Also the "ethnic group" in question is not even something all those in that group would agree on. A lot of people in Azerbaijan at least (I haven't talked to people from other "turkic" nations) are put off by it, because Turkey and some turkish people see themself as the "big bro" that benevolently protect them and knows better. Turkey's turkish is seen as the default and the other nations cultures and languages as cute, quaint or exotic aberrations.

There is also no clear idea what being "turkic" really means, some consider native americans turkic (yes, all the native americans) some consider finns/magyars turkic (this is not a /pol/ shitpost, these people really exist). They (claim to) want a turkic ethnonation across asia, anatolia, to xinjiang and northern sea to afghanistan mostly (depending on who they consider turkic tbh). This is just "aryan peoples" but applied to some other supposed race of people.

[–] Stamets@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (3 children)

You answered a lot, and I'm thankful for that. But you didn't answer the major one. You're accusing this entire community of being a fascist op.

Do you have literally any evidence of this type of behavior on that community?

Because everything you said is, more or less, disagreement. That's perfectly fine and acceptable, that's the world. But you're making a very large claim and have yet to provide any evidence that the community is what you're claiming.

[–] orlando@hexbear.net 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

do you think your standard of evidence may be too high given the well studied subterfuge and plausible deniability fascists engage in? if enough of the user base is even sympathetic to these fascist currents then it's cause for alarm

[–] Stamets@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

No. Anecdotal claims are not evidence. I also asked for any evidence of this community doing this specifically and literally none was ever provided. This is not due to my standard of evidence.

[–] orlando@hexbear.net 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

civility weaponization is a common tactic of theirs. "anecdotal" claims are good enough actually

[–] Stamets@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Civility weaponization is a common tactic of theirs

Yet again, I am begging someone to link to a single thing instead of just claiming stuff.

"Anecdotal" claims are good enough actually

No, they're not, actually. Not when you're making an entire claim about an ethnic group and the community about them. It is, in fact, wildly xenophobic.

You are not the person making this claim and are not aiding in their claims. I have no interest in continuing this conversation with you. Goodbye.

[–] orlando@hexbear.net 0 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

No, they're not, actually

actually yes they are. they are inremoved cases and they are in information wars like the one you're fighting against the left right now. i'm not going to repeat ourselves

[–] Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Thanks for representing all of the left, matey, it must be a heavy burden for a smug bad-jacketing asshole like yourself.

[–] orlando@hexbear.net 0 points 2 weeks ago

you're welcome

[–] Stamets@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

actually yes they are

No. They're not. This is a website where modlogs show removed comments and posts and where links/screenshots are capable. Merely saying "I saw this" is not evidence.

Like the one you're fighting against the left right now

By asking for links or screenshots that are entirely capable of being attained?

I'm not going to repeat ourselves

Nothing said here has made sense or had any bearing on reality to begin with so go for it. I won't be engaging in anything you have to say in future anyway. Blocked.

[–] mathemachristian@hexbear.net 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

My larger point is that the whole concept of a "turkic ethnic group" that spans like a third of asia is born out of racist brainworms wiggling about in turkish society. This is like a community celebrating all the "germanic nations" as if sweden, denmark, germany, austria, northern italy, west poland etc. are all germans wearing different hats. The whole idea that those nations are tied "more closely" together through a shared "lingual root" or more closely related to eachother or whatever should be obviously racist to anyone who has ever heard about the shit the nazis were spewing about the "greater german reich". And I'm not drawing this parallel out of nowhere.

I've decided not to go further with digging into the history of it all. The comm was just part of cm002 special op to starve lemmy.ml of interactions and since it moved to one of the "good" instances it will likely not be very active.

I stand by that this is a racist movement as someone who grew up in turkey, went to turkish school, had the history of Turkey from Mongolia, through the seljuks to the ottoman empire as part of their curriculum and is intimately familiar with the whole ideas and thoughts that tie into this "turkic identity" idea. But unpacking it all would be a big effortpost just in order to get the copy of an already dead comm deleted and I have enough stress and stuff to research as it is.

[–] mathemachristian@hexbear.net 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

I should have just went to the reddit sub tbh. I don't know if it gets clearer than this. This is just skimming the frontpage for a minute

Obsessing over DNA, haplogroups and what ancient civilizations some DNA can(?) be trace backed to

Kurtpasa1923 (Kurt=wolf, the symbol of the nationalist movement, pasa=the ottoman title and 1923 is the founding of the turkish republic all smashed together) asks about a "Turan Union" https://www.reddit.com/r/Tiele/comments/1wkso90/do_you_think_a_turan_union_could_be_established/

I guess they sanitize it for the lemmy audience? Idk, but that plus the related communities should paint a very clear picture imo

Related communities include

  • "Turkic mythology"
  • "Turkish empire"
  • "Turks" has a wolf in it's logo
  • and of course "sekulermilliyetciturk" aka "secular nationalist turks"
[–] Stamets@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I asked for evidence of this community being guilty of what you're claiming. I did it the first time, you answered everything other than that. I reiterated with

Because everything you said is, more or less, disagreement. That’s perfectly fine and acceptable, that’s the world. But you’re making a very large claim and have yet to provide any evidence that the community is what you’re claiming.

You responded with

I’ve decided not to go further with digging into the history of it all.

So you're making a severe accusation against a community and refusing to provide any supporting materials of the behavior from the community you're accusing of this behavior. Then an hour later...

I should have just went to the reddit sub tbh. I don’t know if it gets clearer than this.

This is not Reddit. I asked for evidence of your claim that the community you claimed of being a fascist op was in fact a fascist op. You outright said you have personally decided not to dig into the history of it all. An hour later you dug into the history of it all from a different website and posted it as a gotcha.

I guess they sanitize it for the lemmy audience?

You haven't posted a single thing from lemmy that supports your claim. You have, however, posted links from another and unrelated website in claiming that that somehow bolsters your claim of fascism on this community. The thing that is concerning to me is that you seem to have zero problem going to this other website and looking for evidence of your claims but you refuse to do so here on Lemmy.

But unpacking it all would be a big effortpost just in order to get the copy of an already dead comm deleted and I have enough stress and stuff to research as it is.

You literally just did that same effort in going to reddit, finding multiple posts, taking screenshots and making a comment. All to bolster your claim that the lemmy community is guilty of these things. Yet... its too much effort to find this behavior on the community you're actually accusing of said behavior?

You keep avoiding the one question that I keep asking. You made a claim about this specific community. Do you have any evidence for this behavior? You are now grabbing 'evidence' from another website as if that stands for this community. Different website, different users, different mods, different posts. None of which is valid evidence to make a claim against another website.

So. Again.

You answered a lot, and I'm thankful for that. But you didn't answer the major one. You're accusing this entire community of being a fascist op.

Do you have literally any evidence of this type of behavior on that community?

Because everything you said is, more or less, disagreement. That's perfectly fine and acceptable, that's the world. But you're making a very large claim and have yet to provide any evidence that the community is what you're claiming.

[–] mathemachristian@hexbear.net 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

this community is derived from, is named after and regularly links back to a eugenicist community and it's successor community talks about an ethnonation. Sorry it hasn't made a post that made their intention quite as clear in the two days where the only poster was copying posts over from reddit. Hence why I would need to do a deep dive into turanism and "turkic identity" to explain how this is all sus which is not what I'm gonna do for the mirror of a dead community, which is what I meant by "not digging into the history of it all". The only reason I feel compelled to reply is because of your rude tone implying I'm at fault for not having an open-and-shut case. This is a turanist community, you can believe me who grew up around this kind of thinking or not, but don't act like I have an obligation to explain every detail of turkish racism just to get a dead comm deleted.

You have, however, posted links from another and unrelated website in claiming that that somehow bolsters your claim of fascism on this community

How is the subreddit that spawned the community, that it links back to, that it's named after unrelated??? How is the community that the guy opened after leaving lemmy.ml unrelated to this?? You probably know the nazi bar story but let me repeat it here

I was at a shitty crustpunk bar once getting an after-work beer. One of those shitholes where the bartenders clearly hate you. So the bartender and I were ignoring one another when someone sits next to me and he immediately says, "no. get out."
And the dude next to me says, "hey i'm not doing anything, i'm a paying customer." and the bartender reaches under the counter for a bat or something and says, "out. now." and the dude leaves, kind of yelling. And he was dressed in a punk uniform, I noticed
Anyway, I asked what that was about and the bartender was like, “you didn’t see his vest but it was all nazi shit. Iron crosses and stuff. You get to recognize them.”
And i was like, ohok and he continues. “you have to nip it in the bud immediately. These guys come in and it’s always a nice, polite one. And you serve them because you don’t want to cause a scene. And then they become a regular and after awhile they bring a friend. And that dude is cool too.
And then THEY bring friends and the friends bring friends and they stop being cool and then you realize, oh shit, this is a Nazi bar now. And it’s too late because they’re entrenched and if you try to kick them out, they cause a PROBLEM. So you have to shut them down.”

etc. you know the rest. The dude was acting all nice posting about his ancient heritage under a turanist flag. And I notice it so I thought I'd say something. Probably won't happen again though.

The thing that is concerning to me is that you seem to have zero problem going to this other website and looking for evidence of your claims but you refuse to do so here on Lemmy.

What's the concern? Genuinely, why is that concerning? I'm not even refusing to do so for the lemmy community, there just arent posts that are as clear cut. But even if, what are you so concerned about??

You literally just did that same effort in going to reddit, finding multiple posts, taking screenshots and making a comment.

Nooooo way is going to reddit and grabbing a few links the same effort as writing an essay about this "turkic" movement, how it ties back to the ottoman empire, how it is used to spread anticommunism and rally right-wingers internationally (e.g. Syria, Turkmenistan). And seeing your standard of proof I'd have to explain everything in excruciating detail and pull up the original sources.

different users, different mods, different posts.

Its the one user, that is most likely also active on that sub, a mod for all I know, and is just literally copying posts over. He is literally trying to recreate that sub, which I've just noticed has a göktürk sign next to it's name in case it just was not obvious enough what that community is.

You answered a lot, and I'm thankful for that.

No you aren't, don't do that shit with me. You don't get to talk down to me like that and then pretend like all you want is a completely reasonable effort post.

And like I said the only reason I'm even in here responding to all of this, is because you all make it look like I'm the unreasonable one for posting about an issue that isn't as clear-cut as to allow you all to make an instant decision.

[–] Stamets@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 week ago

regularly links back to a eugenicist community

See, this is shit I'm talking about. You're making a claim against the community that could be easily backed up with a link. You didn't bother. It's just "take my word".

Sorry it hasn’t made a post that made their intention quite as clear in the two days where the only poster was copying posts over from reddit.

Then, according to that, you could have easily grabbed links from the community but instead grabbed them from reddit? YOU are the one making this claim. It is on YOU to back it up. You do not get to act like the victim and act upset that someone has asked you to provide literally anything backing up your claim. My one stipulation was that it has to be from this community. That is it. For whatever reason, you're refusing and expecting everyone else to dig through and do the work to prove your claim. That isn't how this works.

How is the subreddit that spawned the community, that it links back to, that it’s named after unrelated???

Because it has different users and mods and is on a different website. The behavior of those users does not immediately equate to guilt of the users of the community on Lemmy. Moreover, you linked to several posts from reddit. If your claim is that they're automatically posted to lemmy, then why didn't you use the Lemmy posts? This is another example of bad faith.

How is the community that the guy opened after leaving lemmy.ml unrelated to this??

Because Lemmy is literally designed to allow for different communities on different instances. I have no idea what that has to do with this at all.

The dude was acting all nice posting about his ancient heritage under a turanist flag. And I notice it so I thought I’d say something. Probably won’t happen again though.

Yet again. Got any links of this community actually doing that? You have not done so.

What’s the concern? Genuinely, why is that concerning?

Because you cannot use solely the actions of another community to cast blame on this one without using evidence from this community to back your claims. I'm running out of ways to say the exact same thing.

I’m not even refusing to do so for the lemmy community

Yes. You are. You said:

I’ve decided not to go further with digging into the history of it all.

Is this not a refusal?

But even if, what are you so concerned about??

I'm concerned about someone who makes a claim about a group, provides zero evidence of this group doing what they claim, and then expecting everyone to take them at face value. That isn't how this works.

Nooooo way is going to reddit and grabbing a few links the same effort as writing an essay about this “turkic” movement, how it ties back to the ottoman empire, how it is used to spread anticommunism and rally right-wingers internationally

I did not ask for an essay. I asked for literally any evidence that this community is doing what you're claiming. You are the one inventing an essay. This is another example of bad faith. I have asked for something extremely simple, literally any links, and you are changing the standard of proof and getting angry about it.

And seeing your standard of proof I’d have to explain everything in excruciating detail and pull up the original sources.

My standard of proof is links from this community that back up what you're claiming. That's it. I've said this now several times in several comments. It's really not that difficult.

Its the one user, that is most likely also active on that sub, a mod for all I know, and is just literally copying posts over.

Then link to a problematic post.

which I’ve just noticed has a göktürk sign

The Cyberpunk-y image? Or the flag?

No you aren’t, don’t do that shit with me.

You're wrong. I am. I do like knowing more information and learning about this. Everything you've posted is useful information. You just haven't done the one thing of linking it to actions of this community. You're making a claim against groups as a whole but your initial post said:

that comm is a fascist op that is now being spread on lemmy

All I am asking is for you to provide literally any links of that community behaving in such a way. That's it. And you're refusing to do so.

then pretend like all you want is a completely reasonable effort post.

No, all I want are links to the community behaving in a way that you're claiming. That's significantly less effort than the comment you just typed.

you all make it look like I’m the unreasonable one for posting about an issue that isn’t as clear-cut as to allow you all to make an instant decision.

You all.

If everyone here is reacting in the same way then the problem isn't us.

[–] Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

I'm one of those not clued in on Turkish nationalism. So it would be good to understand why you think the Turkic World comm is an example of turanism.

[–] eugenevdebs@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 3 weeks ago

3 days later and nothing...

[–] Stamets@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

Confused as to why a straight up xenophobic attack on an ethnic group is not being taken down. They've provided zero evidence and haven't backed up their claims in well over a week.

[–] Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

@mathemachristian@hexbear.net did you have anything to add to connect the dots here? I think you generally have good takes but I'm not understanding your claim here.

[–] mathemachristian@hexbear.net 0 points 1 week ago

uh yeah have been real busy sry, I'll come up with something soon hopefully. The tl;dr will be that anything about how all those varied cultures with nothing tying them together other than a shared language root 2,000 years ago should be united into a single ethnic group with it's own nation is ethnonationalism. The whole concept of a "turkic family of nations" is parallel to the concept of an "aryan family of nations". It's a muddy definition born out of pseudoscience with the intent to spread racism.

[–] mathemachristian@hexbear.net 0 points 1 week ago

sorry I sat down to get something but it's gonna be a huge thing to unravel and honestly i just don't have the time. I'm just gonna link the "criticism of pan-turkism" section of wikipedia here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Turkism#Criticism_of_pan-Turkism sorry for causing such a fuss and then going AWOL and then also not presenting a proper argument. But it would take a big effort just to get a dead comm deleted and I can't justify that time investment.

[–] Stamets@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

In short, no. They're using links from reddit and saying that somehow means that this community is a fascist op due to it. They say that its too much effort to look for it in the community yet an hour later posted a slew of shit from reddit. This is now multiple weeks of a user having a post on /0 making a pretty hostile claim about ethnic groups using anecdotal evidence and it hasn't been removed. They just keep saying "I've been busy" and "I'll come up with something" followed by a slew of reddit nonsense.

Not to mention that their comments seem to be painting the groups as monolithic and all sharing a uniquely 'aryan' goal, as they keep suggesting, but that in and of itself is xenophobic as hell. Like seriously...

I'm sorry but what the fuck.

[–] Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 week ago

Lol yeah, I know what you are saying, but it's still additional context I guess. See https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/75434630/28389092 for my thoughts, but the tldr is that no, I don't consider the community or the mod to be racist based on any "evidence" provided so far.