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The US is the biggest source of imperialism in the world. We don't have to always follow that up with "butwhatabout" to distract from that, which is what the US media machine does by running stories all the time to manufacture consent for its own imperialism.
People that are being literally killed, tortured, displaced, bombed, denied their identity, starved, raped, genocided right now by China/Russia/North Korea, looking for any support, any help from anyone willing to give it
A Leftist American: US is the biggest source of imperialism in the world and you're not being oppressed by the US, so you're not real. Have a good day. takes a privileged slurp from the huge cup of Starbucks and closes his Macbook
Nice caricature, but it has nothing to do with my post. Pointing out that the US is the biggest source of imperialism doesn't mean no one else is doing bad things, but thanks for proving my point. Fuck Starbucks and Apple, by the way.
The whole point of the OP is that being against US imperialism doesn't mean you have to be very purposefully silent about yhe atrocities committed by the US geopolitical rivals because they are US enemies therefore good.
It's a very prevalent thing about US lefties, if you're not aware, I'm telling it to you, as a Ukrainian lefty myself. I agree, fuck Apple and Starbucks (never had one and heard from friends it's shit). Also fuck Russia for killing a bunch of my friends and fuck those US "leftists" like Chomsky, who suck Russian dicks.
One problem I see is that people feel like they have to work in absolutes or match their opinions 100% with everything within a group. How the grouping forms is not always clear, but apparently if one is associated with that grouping, they feel the need to defend everything in that grouping and attacking everything that isn't.
There is some discussion to be had in the role of the US using proxies to undermine global rivals, but that does not justify Russia invading Ukraine, nothing does. Absolutely, fuck Russia.
Thank you.
I just don't like the pushback against this meme, when all it says is "Yes, US imperailism is bad, it doesn't mean that Stalin did nothing wrong", but for some reason people push back with "US imperialism is bad FULLSTOP, shut up about everything else". Which is exactly how Nortb Korea-glorifying tankies behave. I may have lumped your comment in with those, sorry for that.
I'd say that Russia is the biggest source of suffering caused by imperialism in the world right now ( just going by the death toll of the Ukraine war ) . Is saying that a 'distraction' from American imperialism?
Gaza is happening because of US imperialism. Biden said that's what Israel does in the region very clearly.
Gaza absolutely dwarfs Ukraine in terms of suffering caused by imperialism.
Honestly, this is why I increasingly believe that people who say things like the OP don't actually believe American Imperialism is bad, they're just doing whataboutism to defend it.
The data for Ukraine is so contested that it's hard to put a number on it, but it's probably higher than the Israel Palestine conflict, and at least comparable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#Casualties
If you're going to try to cite a claim, please don't just drop the Wikipedia pages on the subjects. In fact, don't cite Wikipedia at all.
Complicated subjects like this have dozens of citations which often contradict eachother. The great thing about wikipedia is that it shows multiple sources and where they came from. This is a far higher standard of evidence than just cherry-picking one source that agrees with me and pretending that it's definitive. Meanwhile the only thing you've cited is your imagination.
Yeah, but you don't actually check any it the citations, nobody who cites Wikipedia does.
You didn't even say which part of the Wikipedia articles you were citing
Whataboutusm is a russian invention and is 9 times out of ten usad to excuse russia agressions.
Trying to change the subject was not invented by anyone in particular, but the US likes to slap that label onto everything that directs criticism at them. For example, the US has the highest prison population per capita but will preemptively scream about enemy countries imprisoning people with countless stories in the media. Calling out the hypocrisy is countered with accusations of "whataboutism" but that's not whataboutism, it's simply pointing out hypocrisy since it's the same subject.
This is just like how I can praise so many things about China, push back against anti-China US propaganda, and still not pretend it isn’t an authoritarian regime where Xi made himself essentially life time president now.
Speaking of that, are there any left leaning subs that aren’t delusional?
where Xi made himself essentially life time president now.
What? When?
authoritarian regime
Both of these terms are obfuscstory propaganda that mean a person hasn't placed enough scrutiny on what they have internalized. That might sound like I am simply attacking you, but I mean this as a way of answering your (combative) question: you want a space where people have some basic ideas about cold war propaganda but where they retain a significant amount of chauvinist framibgs from that propaganda. You can find like-minded people wherever left education arrests itself, which is why you won't find it in organizations or spaces that require reading on these topics.
To explain my response, I'll go over the two words.
Authoritarian. This word is poisoned beyond clear meaning. Every state is authoritarian, so what is the meaning of calling a particular state authoritarian? Every revolution is authoritarian, so do you also criticize them as such and seek out anti-revolutionary spaces? In reality, I know that this term is just thrown around in chauvinist contexts as a dog whistle. In this context it just means "bad" and "the enemy". It's the liberal version of, "they hate us for our freedoms".
Regime. This term is synonymous with givernment or state, but just colors it as, again, "bad". Venezuela must always be described as being led by a regime, not a government. As a target of imperialist propaganda, it must be implicitly propagandized as illegitimate and bad. Think of someone saying, "the Biden regime". How often do you hear that phrase? If you've heard it, it was a socialist trying to make this point and even the playing field.
If you remove the propaganda aspects, your framing becomes, "still not pretend it isn't a government". Becomes less spicy, doesn't it? Despite having no differences in meaning outside of implying it is bad.
Finally, Xi didn't make himself president for life, he must be regularly reelected. The government itself removed term limits in the normal way: with a vote. Imperialist media calls this "president for life" because they are chauvinists. When the US had no term limits, was every president "president for life"? Aren't term limits antidemocratic, i.e. more authoritarian?
In short: please do some self-criticism on this internalized chauvinism and you will find it easier to find comrades. You are currently in an incoherent position and that means you'd only find comeradery among the incoherent snd incurious. Be around people that challenge you based on their reading and knowledge.
Remember folks: China is communist in the same way that North Korea is democratic and the Nazis were socialist.
It's just a smokescreen.
Eh, there's a notional aspiration to socialism at least, which is more than can be said about the US sphere of countries.
In practice though? Yeah, China is hyper-captialist, without much of the social security present in wealthier countries.
Why Leftist get a hard-on for the former USSR, Russia and China, or frankly any country, is beyond me.
There are positive and negative outcomes in line or against socialist ideals everywhere (I think people are too black and white about China in both directions personally)
I just do not understand simping for any country, just because they are "socialist".
IMO this is why it takes an additional axis to define a government, not just left/right but also free/authoritarian. You can find examples of all combinations. Left wing and repressive? Cuba. Left leaning and free? Sweden. Right wing and repressive? Russia, Saudi Arabia, whatever. Right leaning and free (mostly)? USA.
Obviously, there’s a gradient within these axes, but it’s strange to see people cheering on a country that matches their preferred left or right wing ideology if they’re super repressive.
This is why we need to reeducate people and stop using the traditional left-right spectrum and start using the axis spectrum
Even the axis spectrum is unproductive, ideologies and frameworks cannot be distilled into single data points on a map, no matter how many axes you add.
The axis spectrum has proven to be very efficient imo. A lot of the politics we talk about are mainly composed of social and economic elements which the axis spectrum portrays well.
You cannot distill complicated views into linear axes, though.
These views aren't complicated though, or aren't as complicated as you think. Most of our political opinions can be boiled down to any of the 4 quadrants of the axis.
Can you name any view that doesn't fit into this axis?
Many. Which is more "authoritarian" and which is more "libertarian," a fully publicly owned and democratically controlled economy, or a highly decentralized market economy with a nightwatchman state?
Well it depends right, let's not act like there isn't nuance to this.
a fully publicly owned and democratically controlled economy
It falls on the libertarian-left if individuals and communities genuinely govern themselves without coercion e.g democratic socialism. However, if the system requires a strong central authority to enforce public ownership and suppress alternative systems, it moves toward the authoritarian-left e.g Marxist-Leninism
a highly decentralized market economy with a nightwatchman state
This is just a straight up libertarian right economy. A nightwatchman state equals laissez-faire capitalism which aligns with libertarian-right philosophy.
To answer your question, it depends on the type of publicly owned and democratically controlled economy we're talking about.
See, this is where your analogy falls apart. Marxist-Leninists support recall elections and more democratic methods than what you describe as "democratic socialism." You're trying to add to the existing example to make it mean something it doesn't, I asked you a straightforward question and you had to add to it in order to force it into your tidy and neat boxes.
Same with what you call "lib-right," I would consider that more "authoritarian" because people have far less actual control over their lives than they would in the other example, despite focusing on decentralization. In such an economy, warlordism would be the dominant factor in decision making.
This is why the Political Compass is an exercise in absurdity, you cannot simplify viewpoints to 4 quadrants because that's not how economics or politics actually works. You can only describe them by their real and existing mechanisms.
Again my argument isn't that the compass is a rigid framework; rather, it is a guiding tool. Ideologies themselves are not static, but how they are applied or implemented in specific contexts determines where they fall on the compass. This is why i added the nuance earlier.
Take Marxist-Leninism as an example. In theory, it emphasizes democratic control, but in practice, it often relies on centralized enforcement. The inclusion of recall elections might move the system towards the libertarian-left quadrant. However, if those elections are tokenistic or used to maintain centralized authority, the system trends authoritarian-left again. The Political Compass isn’t saying Marxist-Leninism is always authoritarian-left—it’s showing where it falls based on how it’s applied in practice.
Similarly, decentralized market economies might theoretically align with libertarian-right values. But if power becomes concentrated through corporate dominance or "warlordism," it would practically shift toward authoritarianism.
If anything, you agree with me that it is how these ideologies are applied in practice that matters most. No framework is perfect. The political compass, when used with nuance, is a very valuable analytical tool for measuring trends and shifts in governance and power dynamics.
My point is that using it as a tool ends up doing more to obscure the actual mechanisms at play than it does to reveal them, and thus is useless when you can just state the general guiding principles themselves.
Your analysis of Marxism-Leninism is a good example of the dangers of over-simplifying and trying to make sense of it in a manner that fits on the political compass. Marxism-Leninism proposes democratic centralism and a mass line, concepts that have no way to fit on the political compass and yet give more power to the working class than Anarchism would, because Anarchism limits their reach of influence to their internal communes or syndicates. Even in practice AES states have had recall elections.
Additionally, there is no such thing as a "libertarian right," because there cannot be a market based Capitalist economy without corporations dominating it, no matter how small the state, because there is no chance of working class power.
The political compass erases nuance and oversimplifies to dangerous degrees. It's an idealist framing of material reality and distorts trends and mechanisms, rather than helping track them. The sooner it leaves discourse the better the discourse will be.
Look dude, I completely understand and agree with your emphasis on the importance of analyzing real-world mechanisms like democratic centralism, the mass line, or corporate dominance. However, I don't see the political compass as a replacement for detailed analysis—it’s a supplementary tool to map the trends and tendencies of political and economic systems based on their observable outcomes. It isn’t meant to capture every nuance but rather provide a starting point for discussion.
Marxism-Leninism proposes democratic centralism and a mass line, concepts that have no way to fit on the political compass
I'm not disputing that democratic centralism and the mass line are important concepts, but they don’t inherently negate the usefulness of the compass. If these mechanisms genuinely empower the working class without coercion, they would trend toward a libertarian-left position. However, if in practice they require centralized enforcement or suppress dissent, they trend toward authoritarian-left. That's it! I don't know why you haven't grasped my point yet.
And even in practice, AES states like the USSR and China have had recall elections, but we can also observe instances where those systems centralized power to a degree that suppressed dissent. Over time, especially under Stalin, centralized power reduced any meaningful democratic processes. The leadership of the Communist Party became increasingly authoritarian, and the political system increasingly suppressed dissent e.g The Great Purges. Recall mechanisms were largely ineffective in curbing authoritarianism - similar things occurred in China under Zedong's rule.
I'm not using this point to take a jab at Marxism, I'm only demonstrating that systems you claim are meant to sustain democracy have actively been dismantled in the past. The compass can simply help map these contradictions over time.
there is no such thing as a "libertarian right," because there cannot be a market based Capitalist economy without corporations dominating it, no matter how small the state, because there is no chance of working class power.
Fair enough, but the compass doesn't deny this. A libertarian-right system is theoretical, and its real-world outcomes could shift to authoritarian-right if corporate hierarchies emerge. This is why nuance matters, even when using the compass.
I see your concern that the compass might oversimplify or distort. But tools like this are not meant to replace detailed material analysis—they’re frameworks to orient discussions and provide a rough map of tendencies. If used with care and nuance, the compass doesn’t erase complexity; it helps track trends and spark dialogue about mechanisms. It’s not perfect, but it’s a tool to orient ourselves in complex discussions. Dismissing it entirely risks losing a useful way to track trends and communicate ideas clearly.
You have not demonstrated any usefulness, and in fact its flaws have caused you to contradict yourself.
If these mechanisms genuinely empower the working class without coercion, they would trend toward a libertarian-left position.
Here, your framing of the lib-auth scale is empowering the working class without coercion. It doesn't matter if a system is highly centralized with thorough planning and full public ownership, what matters in this context is the extent to which the working class has power.
However, if in practice they require centralized enforcement or suppress dissent, they trend toward authoritarian-left. That’s it!
This contradicts your previous statement, where centralization doesn't matter, only working class power does, assuming there is no "coercion," which you leave vague and ill-defined.
Moreover, if we define lib-auth as working class power, that means Marxism-Leninism is less authoritarian than Anarchism. I want to reiterate that point, because communes or syndicates have horizontalism in place, there is no control from one commune over another, giving rise to potential power differences and coercion. This doesn't make any sense in the traditional notion of lib-auth!
What this means is that lib-auth must mean, instead, size of government, not how democratic it is, in order to be somewhat useful. This means Marxism is fully auth, as it is for a fully centrally planned economy, yet also democratic. This also seems oversimplified. If we define it as working class power, however, the dynamic flips, and Marxism becomes fully libertarian! This also doesn't make sense.
You can see that, rather than being useful in any capacity, trying to force ideologies and structures onto a grid does more for misinformation than information and needs to be thoroughly forgotten. Ignoring your oversimplification (and frequently wrong, such as the fact that Stalin tried to resign no fewer than 4 times and was democratically rejected, and Mao actually successfully was recalled after the struggles of the Cultural Revolution) analysis of Socialist history, this point remains clear.
To your last points, while it’s true that Stalin did attempt to resign a few times, particularly during moments of crisis or internal conflict, these resignations were never accepted, and this is likely due to his entrenched power and the loyalty he commanded from key figures within the Communist Party. His position was deeply centralized, and while he may have "tried" to step down, he was ultimately not removed from power in any meaningful way.
While these attempts might suggest some level of internal political tension, they don't negate the fact that Stalin's overall control and the repressive mechanisms he put in place (like the purges) show a clear trend toward authoritarianism. The failure of democracy within the system (such as the purging of opposition) is what shaped Stalin’s power in a more authoritarian direction.
Similarly with Mao, while he was temporarily sidelined during the Cultural Revolution, his influence still remained powerful in the political structure of China. The system allowed for a bit of power struggle, but the authoritarian nature of the government under Mao and his followers was never fully dismantled until after his death.
These points CANNOT be disputed by you. You cannot deny that many examples of communism are wholly authoritarian, and that it is largely due to the centralisation of power.
This is a very surface-level analysis of Socialist history, though, your reliance on describing mechanisms in terms of "shifting towards or away from authoritarianism" is precisely the crux of the issue. If you want to say Mao retained influence despite being recalled, describe how and why! Don't just vaguely gesture at "authoritarianism" as though it's a miasma that grows and shrinks, describe how there were many people still loyal to him and his ideas despite the party shifting away from him. By folding it under an umbrella of "authoritarianism" you shroud your points. For Stalin, for example, his resignation was rejected, the fact that it was rejected does not mean it was more authoritarian by itself. Rather, it proves a reverse, that Stalin could not simply do whatever he wanted.
My point is that you attempt to describe nuanced, multifaceted concepts in vague and nondescript terms, and this runs counter to any actual points you are trying to make. I could just as easily call your claim that "I CANNOT" dispute your claims to be itself "authoritarian," but I won't because that's silly too.
I will concede that I'm not well versed in socialist history enough to further buttress my points than i already have. However, you contradict yourself saying "Stalin could not simply do whatever he wanted". This is like saying Hitler wasn't a bad guy because he didn't do the killings himself.
We are both aware of the history of the Soviet Union under Stalin (probably you moreso than me, which confuses me as to why you would suggest Stalin couldn't do whatever he wanted).
Are you suggesting that The Great Purges, The Holodomor influenced by his forced collectivisation, The Gulag system, The Great Terror, The Soviet-Nazi pact, The Katyn Massacre, The Anti-Jewish campaigns and many more atrocities were not examples of Stalin doing whatever he wanted?
I genuinely want to believe that you're not one of those crazy Marxists bud.
No, in no way is that comparable. The CIA didn't believe he was all powerful, and in his attempts to resign, he even tried to suggest eliminating his two positions overall. I suggest that Stalin could not simply do whatever he wanted because I understand, like the CIA did, that he was more of a "captain of the team." He certainly had extensive power and his opinions were held with high weight, but he did not have absolute command nor all-encompasing command. He had the power of his positions, and no more. I suggest reading books on Soviet History post-early 90s, after the Archives opened up.
Really though, the level of imperialism apologizing I've seen has been pretty humorous on this platform. Like people will say with a straight face that we need to support our client state Israel to secure our regional interests. It's the same song and dance from the concert of Europe giving guns to the corrupt African client kings so they can murder the other guy's corrupt African client kings. All for the noble civilizing influence of the state. But this time it'll turn out different. Just like it was different every other fucking time an empire ideologically justified it's imperialism. Because this one time is exceptional, unlike all the other instances of exceptionalism. Furthermore, I consider Carthage to need to be destroyed
Really though, the level of imperialism apologizing I’ve seen has been pretty humorous on this platform. Like people will say with a straight face that we need to support our client state Israel to secure our regional interests.
Is this being federated from some platform other than Lemmy? Because I have literally never seen someone support that position here.
"NOOOOOOO you have to pick one of the two teams or you're a RADICAL CENTRIST!!!!"
Now hang on. If you pretend the two teams are the same and refuse to pick a side because neither is perfect so it doesn't matter, you are an enabler of fascism.
You can support a team while acknowledging their flaws. Refusing to play because the better team isn't perfect is either naive or malicious.
Once you talk about "both teams", you imply there are only two instead of supporting those who to this day resist all states
If you're talking about a presidential election, there are two teams. The rest of the time, you should work on your own team, but when the big race is happening, there are only two viable contenders.
The meme is about US imperialism versus (supposedly) Chinese imperialism. And the election is over, not every meme is about that anymore.
imperialism against imperialists is good
