this post was submitted on 01 Nov 2025
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Socialism

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An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of "ML" (read: Dengist) influence. This is a place for undogmatic and constructive discussion from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.

A certain knowledge of socialism is expected, if you are new to/interested in socialism, please visit c/Socialism101 before participating here. Socialism101 will gladly help you by answering questions, providing resources etc.

Memes go in c/Lefty Memes

Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, upvoting good contributions and downvoting those of low-quality!

Rules

1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith discussion is enforced here.

Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism

2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such,

as well as condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavour.

3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.

That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" (read: Dengist) (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).

4. No Bigotry.

The only dangerous minority is the rich.

5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.

We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.

(if you are reading the rules to apply for modding this community, mention "Xenial Xerus" when answering question 2)

6. Don't idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.

Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.

7. Absolutely no posts or comments meant to relativize(/apologize for), advocate, promote or defend:

(This is not a definitive list, the spirit of the other rules still counts! Eventual duplicates with other rules are for emphasis.)

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[–] Eq0@literature.cafe 0 points 7 months ago (18 children)

I strongly believe (it’s a belief, not a fact), that appropriately controlled capitalism would be a good system. Then I look at all EU countries and the same problem pops up all the time: rich people get richer and richer. There should be a wealth cap of sorts. It’s unethical that some can have anything and everything while almost everyone else can’t.

Let’s then not talk about the control of the news/media that obviously follows from people accumulating wealth like literary dragons… or the whole lobbying industry…

So, I believe, but I also see all manners of counter-proofs all around me and I see no real solutions.

[–] cabbage@piefed.social 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I think you might believe in market economy but not capitalism. Market economy is an economic system, capitalism is an ideology.

[–] nexguy@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (3 children)

Capitalism is really the private ownership of production within a market economy. I don't think that commenter was against private ownership, just more oversight in a capitalist system... which I think is workable.

[–] grue@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

It's more specific even than private ownership. It's about allowing businesses to incorporate as entities with limited liability so that multiple owners can pool capital while shedding risk.

If every shareholder of, say, Nestlé, were criminally liable for every criminal act that Nestlé committed, it would obviously be impossible for such an entity to exist.

The main issue with capitalism is the way it facilitates scale without accountability.

[–] UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml 0 points 7 months ago (5 children)

I think more oversight is a temporary solution. End stage capitalism is inevitable.

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What do you mean when you say those words?

[–] for_some_delta@beehaw.org 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

As a thought experiment, let's say we both have a paper route. We are not in direct competition, but I am unable to expand my route because doing so would be treading on your route. I stop being able to do my route. Anyone could pick up my route, but you are in a position to gain more from my route than someone new to the business. Thereby, you pick up an outsized share of the route. This crowds both new and existing potential route owners.

The example is only about capital accumulation and state involvement. There are other problematic issues such as wage labor as addressed by the comic.

[–] yakko@feddit.uk 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Just about any economic system, if it was run perfectly, would be mostly fine.

The problem is people behave unwisely.

[–] becausechemistry@lemy.lol 0 points 7 months ago

It was so unwise of me to be born into the group of people without generational wealth

[–] CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social 0 points 7 months ago

At the end of the day, I think that the issue with this sentiment is that in some sense, control over something and ownership of that thing are virtually the same thing. If you have "appropriately controlled capitalism", then you have someone other than the capitalists ultimately deciding what the implements that drive the economy are used for and who the dividends are given to. If that someone is just some individual or small group controlling it to their own interests, then you just have an authoritarian system (and frankly, its not really different from a capitalist system that has become sufficiently consolidated for the number of rich owners controlling things to be very small anyway, since those guys will also run things to their own interest). If theres some kind of collective/societal-wide control mechanism, and its actually sufficient in its influence to prevent the abuses of capitalism, then it isnt really capitalism at all anymore because those private "owners" just have a legal fiction of ownership. At which point, their position is doubly useless, so there is little benefit to keeping up that illusion.

[–] jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

There should be a wealth cap of sorts

Some sort of NG+

Once you reach a certain amount of wealth, you get a parade and then you give up all your wealth, get a new identity, and start over.

Maybe if you go over a certain wealth amount, you're entered into Open PvP mode.

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[–] Seefoo@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago

In software we say there are people problems and tool problems. You generally can't solve one type with the other.

I think this applies here. Almost all economic models have positives, but given a chance individuals will abuse it to skew things in their favor.

I dont really see a good solution out there unfortunately, so I settle on the one that has worked in the past which is regulation.

[–] jol@discuss.tchncs.de 0 points 7 months ago

But capitalism expect constantly growing capital value right? How is that possible?

[–] liuther9@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

It is like you join new MMORPG and get fuked by 1kkk lvl players where you barely can get to lvl 10

[–] ProfThadBach@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago

I see you play Ultima Online.

[–] jimmy90@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

any solutions?

anything?

anything at all

useless

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[–] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (5 children)

I just don't see any so-called communist countries without literally the exact same problems, so I can't believe that capitalism is the cause. I think centralizing everything in a communism would be equivalent to monopolies and oligopolies in a capitalism.

Rather than promote communism we're better off promoting more direct and fair democracy.

[–] al_Kaholic@lemmynsfw.com 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Hey man maybe don't compare situations we aren't in and face the fact that capitalism has failed once again. Think way back when you played monopoly as a kid, how did every game end? Even a boot smoocher like you should be able to comprehend this simple equation.

[–] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (3 children)

So you're allowed to use practical examples but I'm not. You also skipped over my critique of the ideology and not the example, ironically supporting my point on accident when you criticized monopoly because in the previous comment I compared the centralized economy of communism to an oligopoly and a monopoly.

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[–] SGforce@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago

Alternatively, learn the meaning of words.

[–] Hacksaw@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Not to support communism as a plausible solution, but all "communist" countries were what we call "state capitalist". Communism is "worker control of the means of production" not "state control of the means of production". Communism ideologically doesn't have the "centralised" ownership of everything that you are referring to. But all "Actually Existing Socialist" countries like Soviet Russia, Cuba, China, etc... did have that centralisation.

All I'm saying is that when you see people advocating for leftist, progressive, social democratic, or "communist" ideas none of them are talking about state ownership of all industry.

[–] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago

I think there not being any true communisms despite the attempts supports my point. An Anarcho-Communism fails because it stops being an anarchy the moment one person grabs enough resources and gains enough authority to enforce their will on the rest. An organized democratic communism might work, as I already mentioned in my first comment, but that's absolutely not what the sort of people in these threads are advocating for. Just scroll through and you'll see people advocating for destruction of the state entirely, sometimes you'll even see them mask off and say specifically destruction of western nations.

[–] Socialism_Everyday@reddthat.com 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I just don't see any so-called communist countries without literally the exact same problems

This comic refers to wealth inequality and appropriation of wealth by an owner class. This is not what happened in communist countries despite what CIA propaganda would have us believe. The top 1% in the USSR only had about 4% of the total income, compared to 20%ish for modern, capitalist Russia and similar figures for USA and such. Also the top earners were not corrupt bureaucrat politicians, but highly trained professionals like university professors, prominent artists, and other members of the intelligentsia. Similar figures are true for communist Cuba, Maoist China, etc.

Communism can be the most democratic system. For example, Vietnam is right now starting a process of dismantling a lot of bureaucracy and state power and to give power to local communes to have budgetary decisions, administrative power, etc. Luna Oi, a member of the Vietnamese communist party and a youtuber, has a very recent video talking about it.

[–] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

This post has the word Capitalism™ written at the top. The USSR had a massive prison industrial complex which still holds the record for highest percentage of population imprisoned on earth, the CCP and Cuba are dystopian nightmares.

[–] Socialism_Everyday@reddthat.com 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Lmfao thanks for not arguing against inequality, which was the point of the post, and moving the goalposts to "vague authoritarianism during WW2" because I literally proved you wrong with real-world data.

The USSR had a massive prison industrial complex

Simply not true. The USSR GULAG system was essentially dismantled during the 1950s, when the Nazi threat was eliminated, and the imprisonment rates dropped dramatically afterwards. Mass imprisonment was a temporary measure imposed from the threat of Nazi sabotage of the country, and it was a dark chapter of the Soviet Union that lasted less than two decades, whereas the socialist experiment lasted 70+ years. This is in opposition to an actual ever-growing prison industrial complex like that of the USA, which is systematic because it generates immense wealth for some corporations.

the CCP and Cuba are dystopian nightmares.

Poor Cubans, enjoying higher life expectancy than the USA, highest number of doctors per capita IN THE WORLD, and recently passing a Democratic referendum to reform the constitution in order to enshrine LGBTQ rights. Poor Chinese, seeing increases of 5% of consumer power yearly with an average inflation of 0%, truly harrowing.

Stop spreading false CIA propaganda, the community is called "actual socialism", not "USA propagandized left-punching faux-socialism".

[–] Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it 0 points 7 months ago (3 children)

China is not very communist if i may say

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[–] 1985MustangCobra@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

that's me falling because of my BPD

[–] CluckN@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (2 children)
[–] Squirrelanna@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 7 months ago

Being poor disorder.

[–] 1985MustangCobra@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago

borderline personality disorder

[–] ICCrawler@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago

JFC that's apt.

[–] beemikeoak@lemmynsfw.com 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Imagine what one billion coins look like aligned end to end!

[–] beemikeoak@lemmynsfw.com 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

24.26mm wide quarter...6065km long line of quarters!

[–] beemikeoak@lemmynsfw.com 0 points 7 months ago

12.8billion in quarters would make a continuous line of quarters all around the earth!

[–] ValarieLenin@midwest.social 0 points 7 months ago

Gd does this one slap.

[–] Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (4 children)

Imagine living in a first world country with unbelievable privileges and still have the skill issue to dare being 'poor'.

A Minimum wage uneducated american burger flipper makes the same salary, if not more, than a government worker of my country the likes of congressmen or their helpers. And yet, they claim to be living paycheck to paycheck, unable to afford a house, food and the pleasures of life.

Yeah right.

[–] Dasus@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (3 children)

And if I were to compare a weeks groceries and bills for the average American, would you have the same costs as them?

Can you travel around without a car? A lot of Americans can't, while living in so called "food deserts". This is an area of high population but little to no cheap nutritious food anywhere. All you can get is overpriced delivery or hop on down to some gas station for a bag of extremely unhealthy fatty snacks and a drink which is 30% sugar.

Imagine thinking that you can live in a first world country while paying as much as living in the developing world.

[–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

So your faucets (or if you insist, or you live in flint, gas stations) don't have water? Like in you own argument you are showing all the outrageously wrong choices you make...

[–] Dasus@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

People who grow up in food deserts end up with very poor eating choices, yeah.

And unlike me, a lot of Americans apparently can't even drink their tap water, and more or less have to buy bottled drinks. If the only ones available then are bad ones, you'll get used to them as well.

All that aside, I just don't think you understand how expensive it is to live in a first world country. And it's not like people can just choose to emigrate or move wherever they want, nah, that's the privilege of cheaper countries or actually wealthy people in the first world.

People who were 10 years older than me got their first apartment loans with like 5k downpayment and as long as they had a steady job. That would be easy mode yeah. But that's not exactly how the housing market is.

What would you even know, probably live in family owned houses that are on land your family has owned for at least 50 years or smth and which you will inherit. Easymode. And there isn't much you can't upgrade to nowadays even in developing countries as to upgrade your home to a first world level easily, even if you're going full off the grid. Especially in sunnier countries.

[–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Not only I live in a first world country, I emigrated my ass twice. I think people are lazy and look for excuses for their bad decisions (like buying a drink with 30% sugar when water is available two steps away).

[–] Dasus@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (2 children)

So you don't think food deserts in the US are a real thing? Notice how I'm not American. So how is anyone "excusing their behaviour"? That would mean that either I'd be explaining something about my own life or that I'd be one of those people in the food deserts.

Neither is happening.

Probably easy yo emigrate after you got to save up money on easy mode in some developing country where you can still make bank depending on where you work (but on the internet you can work in first world countries without leaving your home), save up and then set yourself up for success.

It's easy if someone gives you the resources to actually utilise the best options.

But the best options are usually the most expensive ones. Like buying a bus ticket for a year. No problem for someone even a tad wealthier, but someone who's paying rent and living from paycheck to paycheck..?

Nah.

Basically you're one of those people who think poverty is completely avoidable as long as you try hard enough.

The libertarian clows who I've heard that from always seem to fail to explain why young Asian girls don't rule the world since it's just about working hard.

[–] Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago

Working hard does not work, you have to work smart, use the same cheats the crapitalists do. Never work hard, it's worthless

[–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 7 months ago (19 children)

First time I emigrated was from a communist country where emigrating was illegal, and food was rationed. So tell me more about this easy mode.

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[–] Rbnsft@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Water in bottles in America is often as expensive as soft drinks. And Yeah many places the Water is not good to Drink from the faucet..

[–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 7 months ago (34 children)

So by you own admission there is literally no downside to grab a water and you still choose the unhealthy option. And the same logic is probably applied everywhere.

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[–] Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

There is something called public transportation. Even savage third world countries have them, as bad as they are, but they work

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[–] Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (4 children)

Food desert?

You first worlders invent fancy words for everything. Try living in a real desert for once, you privileged gringo.

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[–] Object299@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Billionaires should by definition not exist if they abided by all laws and regulations that existed, including paying taxes and paying their workers a fair wage. These people got to where they are because they've committed several serious crimes and destroyed an awful lot of lives in the process, and simply do not care that they did.

This isn't a "skill issue". If we're going to put it into video game logic, this world is a video game where cheaters and hackers are rampant, and nobody does anything about them as they destroy the world. It doesn't matter how good you are at the game, it doesn't matter how much effort you put into learning how to play it, that cheater has godmode and aimbot activated. Nothing you ever do will affect them in any meaningful way. The game masters are also cheaters and thus, it's in their best interests to maintain this. The cheaters have the monopoly on the game and the only reason the game is still going is because we all participate in it or we all die.

The cheaters need us to keep playing or they die as well. Just like how the wealthy elites need us to keep working or everything they have becomes redundant. Their way of life gone and buried. They didn't get there by being good or skilled, they got there because they gave the literal and proverbial middle finger to morals and ethics, and the law, and got rewarded immensely for it. Then they changed the system so it would always benefit them via paid lobbying in politics and getting their bribed politicians to destroy every little thing that could possibly protect the peasants, like you and me.

Stop defending the people who would happily raze your entire neighborhood to the ground and toss you and your family into the meat grinder if it meant making slightly more money this year than the year before. They do not give a FUCK about you. Not a singular fuck. You will not be rewarded for your loyalty. You will not be acknowledged for your perseverance. You do not matter to them. Unless you are the brother of a certain plumber, then you matter greatly enough that terrorism charges are applied to you.

That should tell you everything you need to know. Stop this crabs in a bucket mentality.

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[–] qevlarr@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (3 children)

This is the artist: https://newsie.social/@royaards

His cartoons are amazing and he's not afraid to call a spade a spade. Often Dutch politics, but also some international topics

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[–] nutbutter@discuss.tchncs.de 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)
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