this post was submitted on 11 May 2026
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Oh no, the free housing isn't fast enough or big enough, oh no, it looks so drab oh no
What did capitalism do for you? How long do you have to wait now to spend 3% of your income on housing instead of 30%+?
I like how you completely disregarded an account by someone who actually lived under the system you're shlupping and immediatley attacked his character. Kinda like how christians react when you tell them Jesus wasn't real, or Ivermectin won't stop covid.
Just remarkable similarity.
Weird, I actually live in the system I want to change, but I guess my experiences don't mean anything, and I should just listen to some random internet stranger about it.
Some of us base our opinions on facts and reason. Is there any actual source on "having to wait 20-30 years for a house?" Or am I just expected to accept that claim completely uncritically?
I can't help but notice how negative claims about communist societies are placed in this special category where expressing any sort of skepticism about them is seen as somehow morally wrong. It reminds me a lot of how questioning the religion I was raised with was seen as wrong, demonstrating a lack of faith. I'm sorry that I don't have enough blind faith in capitalism for you and keep blaspheming against your dogma.
I'm sure you wouldn't want someone to completely disregard your experiences out of hand, correct? Like how you just did to u/BlackLazor. I would hope you wouldn't want someone to do the same to you.
According to Quora the wait time was around 10 years. This person also says a family of four in a very tiny space (less than 20 sqm) was the norm. That account is pretty extensive, with contemporary illustrations to help you understand.
Russia Beyond says the wait time was 6-7 years. Apparently you couldn't apply for an apartment if your current living situation was any better than a broom closet (must be less than 9 sqm per person.) This source also says that Public sector employees (doctors, teachers, etc) had a wait time of 10 or more years. Apparently one could buy an apartment for 10,000 rubles, while the average salary was 150-200 rubles, so about ten times the monthly salary.
Looking at all this, it seems to me what u/Blacklazor said was not incorrect. It may be exaggerated, but the sources say most people lived in cramped apartments with too many people per sqm, were waiting "More than 10 years" to upgrade, and didnt' get to specify which apartment one was given, or where it was located. So far the account checks out.
You know, there really does seem to be a lot of info out there about housing in the USSR, if you're truly serious about wanting to know and not just virtue signaling I'd reccomend doing some googles and actually reading about it. Not being facetious, it's pretty interesting.
Nobody said you were morally wrong. What I did say is that you had the same kind of reaction against u/Blacklazor that a religious person does when confronted with questions of faith, because you did. You completely disregarded the account and made zero effort to assess or examine your own position.
Just like they did to me, when they said the only thing that drew me to communism was "propaganda" as opposed to my time working under capitalism. The difference is that I discounted their unsubstantiated claims about statistical facts while they discounted my own journey.
According to Quora? Great, so now we have two internet randos saying something.
Which is significantly less than what they claimed. So the two internet randos can't even agree. In that case, which of them should I treat as an absolute authority and which one should I "completely disregard the experiences of out of hand" to use your pretentious language?
Finally. Say what you will about Russian state media, but at least it's more of a source than random people on the internet, which you seem to primarily rely on.
Which completely contradicts the other user.
What on earth?? "The account checks out" when they were exaggerating somewhere between 2-5 times the actual numbers?
The claim was not, "you had to wait 20-30 years for an upgrade" it was specifically "You weren’t getting any housing in that system. You could enlist in a queue and wait for 20-30 years to get piss poor commie block apartment." That's completely unsupported by your sources.
It's also the same reaction a scientist tends to have towards a flat-earther. I don't know why you think a random internet person saying things is something that should be treated as a reliable source. If someone says, "I walked and walked for miles and the earth seemed really flat the whole way," am I allowed to "discount their entire experience" or am I supposed to "put effort into reassessing my position" regarding the shape of the earth?
As it turns out, I was 100% right to be skeptical, because your own sources back me up and show that the other person was completely wrong.
Yeah but you did it first.
I mean you could get up off your butt and look yourself if you have a problem with the source I provided. Like I said there's a wealth of information out there regarding the subject. You could also try to dispute my source instead of just dismissing it out of hand - like you did to u/Blacklazor.
Ahh, so you'll trust media from the oppressors you agree with. So basically you're a tankie equvalent of MAGA.
So you didn't actually read anymore about the subject, right? Why am I not suprised.
Read the rest of that paragraph please. I'll post it here to make it easy for you.
I.e. His family of four lived in a 20 sqm apartment (less than 9sqm per person) and would have to wait 20-30 years to get a "piss poor commie block apartment." I don't think it's unreasonable to characterize "waiting 20-30 years" as "never." Now if you'd read the sources I posted you'd see this aligns very closely with what is described - that being most people who weren't rich or connected to an oligarch had to wait more than 10 years for an apartment. I even found a source that broke it down into a nice and helpful chart - see if you can find that source yourself.
I mean, I know you won't becuase this hands your ass to your arguement on a sliver platter with a side of trimmings, and if there's one thing people like you can't stand it's being proved wrong, bu whatever.
Except in real life it wasn't, what u/blacklazor described aligns pretty well with the accounts on both pages, and other sources you will find if you just quit being lazy and put in the effort.
Skipping the rest of the bullshit you posted for my own mental health. There is a wealth of information that you can get with a few simple googles, please read up and stop embarassing yourself.
No, literally this was from their very first comment.
Again, random internet users are not a credible source. Pointing that fact out is disputing your source. Don't they teach you this in school?
YOU posted the source! If I had rejected it, you'd be attacking me for blindly dismissing anything that contradicts my worldview! Damned if I do, damned if I don't, there's no winning with you.
I literally called attention to the fact that your source is Russian state media, and that you can "say what you will about it," to indicate that it's not fully trustworthy. Were you even aware it was affiliated with the Russian government?
That's not what he said at all. The 20 sqm apartment was the "piss poor commie block apartment" that one would have to wait 20-30 years for.
I did read your sources, and they in fact said that most people had to wait 6-7 years:
"On average, the waiting time to receive an apartment from the state in the USSR was around six to seven years."
In fact, you got it backwards. The part about "over 10 years" is about public sector employees. Even then, 10 is significantly less that "20-30," but I suppose they didn't teach you that either.
Lmao, your source saying 6-7 years in contrast to the claim of 20-30 "hands my ass to my argument on a silver platter with a side of trimmings?" Is there any number that would lead you to admit you're wrong? What would it have to be, 3 years? 1 year? A week? Apparently it can be off by a factor of 5, and you'll still treat it as some kind of smoking gun that proves I won't accept being proven wrong.
The projection is truly off the scales.
The fact that you posted these right next to each other 😆
Whatever son. It's a free country, so go with whatever bullshit you want. The evidence backs up u/Blacklazor and not you, I love how you just can't handle it.
I would also like to point out the parts of his comments that you didn't dispute or don't have a probem with, such as his father "needed to get a permit to leave the country," or that food was "rationed, not subsidized," or the fact that in order to get housing, one must get on a list and wait multiple years in the first place. I mean, yeah that sure does sound like a great place to live.
But please, go do the work and read up on the subject, because you're wrong on pretty much all of your points above. Like this one:
Nope. If you would've actually done the research, you'd have seen that one is usually given a bed in a dormatory, then must get on a waiting list for a "piss poor commie block apartment." The tiny apartment where a family of four is squeezed into 20sqm is after they waited multiple years. This is if they were lucky enough to get an apartment they didn't have to share with multiple other families.
Now please put in the effort and read up on it, because you're really misinformed.
The evidence you presented points to 6-7, not 20-30. I don't know how else to say it, you're just objectively wrong by a factor of 3-5 by your own source, and no amount of pretending otherwise will change that fact.
See, this is the problem. Nowhere did I actually claim that the USSR was some kind of perfect utopia. You just assigned those positions to me because you decided I'm a "tankie" so I must believe that, instead of listening to what I actually say. Attacking me over claims I didn't make is the definition of a strawman.
This, again, is not how it works. If you "actually did the research" then show me the evidence. You can't just allude vaguely to some claim you found somewhere, especially since the sources you've cited so far, a random Quora user and Russian state media you didn't realize was Russian state media, don't exactly fill me with confidence regarding your investigative standards.
It just blows my mind how hypocritical you can be, you found evidence that clearly proves you wrong and you keep projecting on to me that I won't change my mind in the light of evidence that I'm right.
6-7 is less than 20-30. That's really all that needs to be said. You just can't accept that basic mathematical fact because you're an ideologue.
No, I think you refuse to do the research on this subject because you're the actual ideologue here. You have an emotional stake in somehow proving that the USSR wasn't a totalitarian inept impoverished wasteland, and actually learning what life was like under that system would destroy your worldview.
I'm the only one of us capable of acknowledging that 7 is a smaller number than 20. If understanding elementary school level math makes me an ideologue, a tankie, whatever else, then so be it. Nothing you say changes those numbers.
What's more important, what you want to believe or what really happened?
Read up on the subject please.
Tell me, was "what really happened" 6-7 years or 20-30 years? Can you answer that one question?
You're the one rejecting the evidence in favor of what you want to believe.
It was more than 10 years for most people, and up to 20 years or more.
Which you would've known if you'd bothered to do the reading.
Wrong. Your own source said 6-7 years, which you would know if you did the reading. Even then, and this may surprise you to learn, but 10 is also less than 20.
20-30 years is completely and utterly unsupported. It's a total ass pull. And you're trying to claim I'm an ideologue because I'm sticking to the facts instead of this made up bullshit that's contradicted by your own sources.
So you haven't bothered to do any more research, correct? Do you really care about the truth? Or do you only care about winning an arguement?
Buddy, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. I'm not going to do your homework for you.
And you can talk all you want about how I "don't care about the truth," no amount of posturing will change the objective fact that 7 is less than 20. I'm the only one here basing my beliefs in anything factual.
Lol you're literally asking me to do your work for you.
No, if you're interested, YOU can go and do the research, like I've been telling you for the last five comments.
The truth is normal people waited 10 or more years, sometimes more than 20.
I mean you wouldn't know, because you haven't bothered to do any additional reading. I've already proven it to my own statisfaction, now you can do the same.
You've proven it to my satisfaction too! I'm using your own source, which literally says, word for word, that the wait time was 6-7 years! Nowhere have you presented any evidence it was remotely close to 20-30!
I'm not surprised that you've "proven it to your own satisfaction," given that your standards of evidence are random Quora users and Russian state media you don't even realize is Russian state media! And even they say you're wrong! Literally the only standard you're applying is, "What makes the USSR look bad" or "What lets me win this argument."
I really don't know what you're getting out of this. You are not going to convince me that when it says, "the average wait time was 6-7 years" it actually meant 20-30. You're not going to convince me that 6-7 is basically the same as 20-30. You're not going to get me to do your homework for you. Your source says 6-7, not 20-30 so that's what I'm going with. This is incredibly straightforward.
I legitimately can't tell if you're just trolling me or if you're legitimately unable to understand this. Just find a schoolbus in the morning, and get on it. You need more help than I could ever provide.
Ok, I see that you're more interested in winning an arguement than what is really true. I'll say it one last time,
In real life, the wait time for the average person to get an apartment in the USSR was more than 10 years, sometimes up to 20 or more. This is what multiple sources (including the ones I posted) actually say. If you don't believe me go back and read them in greater detail, or even better do some additional reading of other sources that I didn't list.
Because i'ts not my job to educate you. I told you what to do, now you can choose to do it.
God damn, no wonder kids are so fucking stupid nowadays. Nobody can get you people to read.
Bro, it doesn't matter how many times you say something. What matters is what the fucking source says. It's like you think if you just say something loudly and confidently enough, that somehow makes it true. It's ridiculous.
That's just an outright lie. I saw the source, you saw the source, I don't know who you possibly think is going to fall for that. ~~Nobody else is reading this far into a pointless argument in a 4 day old thread~~ (apparently one person did, hi, upvoter) Like, literally:
Who am I going to believe? You, or my own eyes?
Buddy, I understand you're just trying to copy what I said, but you have absolutely no leg to stand on here. The screenshot is literally right there like a smoking gun. If you're not trolling and aware that you're spewing bullshit, you have to be the most ignorant person on the planet.
But you know what? Fine. I looked into it and here's my source saying it's 6-7 years.
Bro, what is the one thing I asked you to do, in my last 15 comments?
Your homework.
I asked you to read additional sources besides the ones I provided for you. Did you do that?
Yes, actually, I did. I remain convinced that your source is correct and that it was 6-7, not 20-30.
Then apparently you didn't read this source, which was one of the sources I gave you, where it says "In Moscow of the 1970s-1980s, for a regular schmuck in a regular clerk position, the rule of thumb was 10 years, give or take."
Or this, also from the same source, "Large regional capitals and major cities (Moscow, Leningrad, Kiev, Riga): commonly 7–20+ years; in the biggest cities many applicants waited a decade or more."
Or maybe this one from Russia Beyond, which is the other source I gave you, which you loved to point out says "On average, the waiting time to receive an apartment from the state in the USSR was around six to seven years." However if you weren't so damn lazy you would've read the next fucking paragraph, which says "Public sector employees (teachers, doctors) could join a waiting list compiled by the local administration, but the waiting time on these could be more than 10 years." It's almost like you don't care about the actual truth.
Or maybe if you weren't lazy you could've done some additional reading like I told you to like seven times, then you would've found this source, which literally the 5th result in a google search, and you would've seen this:
But you didn't bother doing that because you didn't do any further reading because you're intellectually lazy and don't give a fuck about the actual truth. So no suprise there.
Hey look, here's another source which is literally on the front page of a google search, where it's mentioned " I’ve been waiting for a home for 10 years, but I can’t afford it and I don’t have a back-up." I won't tell you which page that's located on because I want you to find it for yourself.
In fact, since I know you're lazy as hell and don't actually give a fuck, here's five other sources. But watch out, one of these sources is false! Which one is it? You'll have to quit being lazy and actually READ them to find out.
Here
Here
Here
Here
and Here
Now quit being lazy. Go to Google.com, type in "How long did people wait for housing in the USSR," click "Search" and read some of the god damned links. Ask yourself "Do you actually care about the truth?" Because if you are then stop lying to me about reading, and actually do the fucking reading.
Jesus fucking wept.
Now that you've finally done your homework, presented the sources of your beliefs for me to examine, like I told you to do about seven times, I will happily go through them, since you are no longer trying to make me go on a wild goose chase hunting down every random internet user with something negative to say about the USSR.
Your first source, as mentioned before, is a random Quora user. That's not remotely credible and it's ridiculous that you're still trying to use that even after I addressed it.
Your second source, Russia Beyond, I've addressed countless times. It quite clearly says that the average wait time was 6-7 years. Public sector employees might have to wait 10 or more, but the claim was about the average in general, and as I've repeatedly told you, 10 is also less than 20-30.
Your third source says:
Which again, the claim was about housing in general and not about upgrades.
Moving on to your fourth source:
Lol, being deliberately obtuse is not how you get people to engage with a source. Nevertheless, because I have such tremendous patience, I looked it up, it's on page 9. Once again, this is an single individual and tells us nothing about the overall statistical reality, and once again, 10 years is less than 20-30.
Your fifth source says:
Meaning, you'd have a shared apartment but might have to wait 10 years to upgrade to a separate dwelling. 10 years is still less than 20-30.
Also, Radio Free Europe is affiliated with the US government, just fyi. I take it with a grain of salt, like with the Russian one, but, like the Russian one, it contradicts your position, so that's your problem, not mine.
Your sixth source says:
Once again, that's saying 10+ years for an upgrade (in specific cities), contradicting the claim of 20-30 years to get anything at all, because, and this is true, 10 is less than 20-30.
Your seventh source says:
This one says around 10 years to obtain housing in the Stalin era. I'm not sure if they mean, housing outside of a shared apartment or housing in general, and the situation was worse during that era than later. Once again, 10 years is less than 20-30.
Your eighth source is a Rickroll. I'm not sure why you think trolling me for reading through your sources is a good idea. I think your frustrations have more to do with the fact that you seem very confused about the purpose of sources and how debate works in general, rather than anything on my part.
Your ninth source says:
This is perhaps the closest any of your sources has come to backing up the claim of 20-30 years, however, it doesn't explain where that claim actually comes from or how typical it was, or if it's talking about waiting in the queue for an upgrade, or for housing at all.
There. See, when you do your homework, I do my part too. I'm just not going to do the part of trying to guess where you're getting your claims and beliefs from.
I'm not sure what part of that Jesus is so broken up about tbh 🤣
The whole point, since the begining, was to get you to do additional reading beyond what is presented to you. You know, to LEARN ABOUT THE FUCKING SUBJECT.
But you don't actually care about the subject, do you? Because you only give a shit about defending your ideology, and not about the truth about what actually happened. This is why you're always going to lose, because you're dishonest, and I have no patience for people who are dishonest.
Edit: Jesus fucking wept.
That's not being "dishonest" that's just how debates work. You seem to be reading an incredible amount of things into the fact that I wouldn't do your homework for you.
Although, you had already decided you knew all sorts of things about me from your first comment. Since you had already made up your mind, there was never any way for me to change that.
But I will say, I appreciate that you did finally do your homework. It will be nice to have those sources if I ever need to refute similar claims in the future.
You really should go to Cuba and stay there. Why change current system if you can just travel and live in your dream paradise?
The small island country that's being threatened and economically isolated by the most powerful and militaristic country on earth? Not my first choice.
Why do anti-communists always suggest moving directly into the crosshairs of imperialism?
Then go to Noth Korea, I don't care
Interesting thread of comments. I kept upvoting both sides of the comments when good points were made.
I think you lost me with Cuba. Probably would've been better to come back with evidence of the 20-30 years claim, or a cited example of some of the systemic dysfunction of life in the USSR instead of jumping to Cuba, arguably the worst current example to pick.
Edit: my bad, you have more responses to others.
I'm tired with arguing with blind dude about colors. I saw shit and lived there, he didn't.