this post was submitted on 11 May 2026
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[–] Hawanja@lemmy.world -1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

You just can’t accept that basic mathematical fact because you’re an ideologue.

No, I think you refuse to do the research on this subject because you're the actual ideologue here. You have an emotional stake in somehow proving that the USSR wasn't a totalitarian inept impoverished wasteland, and actually learning what life was like under that system would destroy your worldview.

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I'm the only one of us capable of acknowledging that 7 is a smaller number than 20. If understanding elementary school level math makes me an ideologue, a tankie, whatever else, then so be it. Nothing you say changes those numbers.

[–] Hawanja@lemmy.world -1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

What's more important, what you want to believe or what really happened?
Read up on the subject please.

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Tell me, was "what really happened" 6-7 years or 20-30 years? Can you answer that one question?

You're the one rejecting the evidence in favor of what you want to believe.

[–] Hawanja@lemmy.world -1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

It was more than 10 years for most people, and up to 20 years or more.
Which you would've known if you'd bothered to do the reading.

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Wrong. Your own source said 6-7 years, which you would know if you did the reading. Even then, and this may surprise you to learn, but 10 is also less than 20.

20-30 years is completely and utterly unsupported. It's a total ass pull. And you're trying to claim I'm an ideologue because I'm sticking to the facts instead of this made up bullshit that's contradicted by your own sources.

[–] Hawanja@lemmy.world 0 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

So you haven't bothered to do any more research, correct? Do you really care about the truth? Or do you only care about winning an arguement?

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Buddy, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. I'm not going to do your homework for you.

And you can talk all you want about how I "don't care about the truth," no amount of posturing will change the objective fact that 7 is less than 20. I'm the only one here basing my beliefs in anything factual.

[–] Hawanja@lemmy.world -1 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Lol you're literally asking me to do your work for you.
No, if you're interested, YOU can go and do the research, like I've been telling you for the last five comments.

And you can talk all you want about how I “don’t care about the truth,” no amount of posturing will change the objective fact that 7 is less than 20.

The truth is normal people waited 10 or more years, sometimes more than 20.
I mean you wouldn't know, because you haven't bothered to do any additional reading. I've already proven it to my own statisfaction, now you can do the same.

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

You've proven it to my satisfaction too! I'm using your own source, which literally says, word for word, that the wait time was 6-7 years! Nowhere have you presented any evidence it was remotely close to 20-30!

I'm not surprised that you've "proven it to your own satisfaction," given that your standards of evidence are random Quora users and Russian state media you don't even realize is Russian state media! And even they say you're wrong! Literally the only standard you're applying is, "What makes the USSR look bad" or "What lets me win this argument."

I really don't know what you're getting out of this. You are not going to convince me that when it says, "the average wait time was 6-7 years" it actually meant 20-30. You're not going to convince me that 6-7 is basically the same as 20-30. You're not going to get me to do your homework for you. Your source says 6-7, not 20-30 so that's what I'm going with. This is incredibly straightforward.

I legitimately can't tell if you're just trolling me or if you're legitimately unable to understand this. Just find a schoolbus in the morning, and get on it. You need more help than I could ever provide.

[–] Hawanja@lemmy.world -1 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Ok, I see that you're more interested in winning an arguement than what is really true. I'll say it one last time,
In real life, the wait time for the average person to get an apartment in the USSR was more than 10 years, sometimes up to 20 or more. This is what multiple sources (including the ones I posted) actually say. If you don't believe me go back and read them in greater detail, or even better do some additional reading of other sources that I didn't list.

Nowhere have you presented any evidence it was remotely close to 20-30!

Because i'ts not my job to educate you. I told you what to do, now you can choose to do it.

God damn, no wonder kids are so fucking stupid nowadays. Nobody can get you people to read.

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Bro, it doesn't matter how many times you say something. What matters is what the fucking source says. It's like you think if you just say something loudly and confidently enough, that somehow makes it true. It's ridiculous.

This is what multiple sources (including the ones I posted) actually say.

That's just an outright lie. I saw the source, you saw the source, I don't know who you possibly think is going to fall for that. ~~Nobody else is reading this far into a pointless argument in a 4 day old thread~~ (apparently one person did, hi, upvoter) Like, literally:

Who am I going to believe? You, or my own eyes?

God damn, no wonder kids are so fucking stupid nowadays. Nobody can get you people to read.

Buddy, I understand you're just trying to copy what I said, but you have absolutely no leg to stand on here. The screenshot is literally right there like a smoking gun. If you're not trolling and aware that you're spewing bullshit, you have to be the most ignorant person on the planet.

But you know what? Fine. I looked into it and here's my source saying it's 6-7 years.

[–] Hawanja@lemmy.world 0 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Bro, what is the one thing I asked you to do, in my last 15 comments?

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)
[–] Hawanja@lemmy.world 0 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I asked you to read additional sources besides the ones I provided for you. Did you do that?

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Yes, actually, I did. I remain convinced that your source is correct and that it was 6-7, not 20-30.

[–] Hawanja@lemmy.world 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

Then apparently you didn't read this source, which was one of the sources I gave you, where it says "In Moscow of the 1970s-1980s, for a regular schmuck in a regular clerk position, the rule of thumb was 10 years, give or take."

Or this, also from the same source, "Large regional capitals and major cities (Moscow, Leningrad, Kiev, Riga): commonly 7–20+ years; in the biggest cities many applicants waited a decade or more."

Or maybe this one from Russia Beyond, which is the other source I gave you, which you loved to point out says "On average, the waiting time to receive an apartment from the state in the USSR was around six to seven years." However if you weren't so damn lazy you would've read the next fucking paragraph, which says "Public sector employees (teachers, doctors) could join a waiting list compiled by the local administration, but the waiting time on these could be more than 10 years." It's almost like you don't care about the actual truth.

Or maybe if you weren't lazy you could've done some additional reading like I told you to like seven times, then you would've found this source, which literally the 5th result in a google search, and you would've seen this:

'Life in a hostel is unbearable even with one child,' Natalya Fomina, 26, a weaver at a textile factory in the Ural Mountains told the weekly Moscow News. 'By the time I get a flat I'll probably be an old woman.' A 20-year wait was termed 'the general rule.'

But you didn't bother doing that because you didn't do any further reading because you're intellectually lazy and don't give a fuck about the actual truth. So no suprise there.

Hey look, here's another source which is literally on the front page of a google search, where it's mentioned " I’ve been waiting for a home for 10 years, but I can’t afford it and I don’t have a back-up." I won't tell you which page that's located on because I want you to find it for yourself.

In fact, since I know you're lazy as hell and don't actually give a fuck, here's five other sources. But watch out, one of these sources is false! Which one is it? You'll have to quit being lazy and actually READ them to find out.

Here
Here
Here
Here
and Here

Now quit being lazy. Go to Google.com, type in "How long did people wait for housing in the USSR," click "Search" and read some of the god damned links. Ask yourself "Do you actually care about the truth?" Because if you are then stop lying to me about reading, and actually do the fucking reading.

Jesus fucking wept.

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

Now that you've finally done your homework, presented the sources of your beliefs for me to examine, like I told you to do about seven times, I will happily go through them, since you are no longer trying to make me go on a wild goose chase hunting down every random internet user with something negative to say about the USSR.

Your first source, as mentioned before, is a random Quora user. That's not remotely credible and it's ridiculous that you're still trying to use that even after I addressed it.

Your second source, Russia Beyond, I've addressed countless times. It quite clearly says that the average wait time was 6-7 years. Public sector employees might have to wait 10 or more, but the claim was about the average in general, and as I've repeatedly told you, 10 is also less than 20-30.

Your third source says:

On the positive side, the boast that 'there are no homeless in the Soviet Union' is generally true. But the homes are not what a Western family would tolerate -- or what Soviets want.

Which again, the claim was about housing in general and not about upgrades.

Moving on to your fourth source:

I won’t tell you which page that’s located on because I want you to find it for yourself.

Lol, being deliberately obtuse is not how you get people to engage with a source. Nevertheless, because I have such tremendous patience, I looked it up, it's on page 9. Once again, this is an single individual and tells us nothing about the overall statistical reality, and once again, 10 years is less than 20-30.

Your fifth source says:

Waiting lists for separate apartments could take 10 years or longer

Meaning, you'd have a shared apartment but might have to wait 10 years to upgrade to a separate dwelling. 10 years is still less than 20-30.

Also, Radio Free Europe is affiliated with the US government, just fyi. I take it with a grain of salt, like with the Russian one, but, like the Russian one, it contradicts your position, so that's your problem, not mine.

Your sixth source says:

But if the room was 14 sq.m – they received the right to improve their living conditions and were included into the waiting list for the new flat, granted from the State (this people are called ocheredniki) . Some ocheredniki have to wait for several years (in Moscow and Leningrad – 10 years and even more).

Once again, that's saying 10+ years for an upgrade (in specific cities), contradicting the claim of 20-30 years to get anything at all, because, and this is true, 10 is less than 20-30.

Your seventh source says:

During the Stalin era, between 1927 and 1955, the USSR did not increase the extremely low per capita built-up area rates that existed in 1917, 4m2. Cohabitation was frequent and necessary, with about 35% of the population living in shared apartments until the end of the USSR. The queues of waiting to obtain housing took around 10 years.

This one says around 10 years to obtain housing in the Stalin era. I'm not sure if they mean, housing outside of a shared apartment or housing in general, and the situation was worse during that era than later. Once again, 10 years is less than 20-30.

Your eighth source is a Rickroll. I'm not sure why you think trolling me for reading through your sources is a good idea. I think your frustrations have more to do with the fact that you seem very confused about the purpose of sources and how debate works in general, rather than anything on my part.

Your ninth source says:

Instead, the MZhK movement started to be seen primarily as a shortcut for solving the housing problems of young families, who otherwise had to wait in the queue for years or even decades.

This is perhaps the closest any of your sources has come to backing up the claim of 20-30 years, however, it doesn't explain where that claim actually comes from or how typical it was, or if it's talking about waiting in the queue for an upgrade, or for housing at all.


There. See, when you do your homework, I do my part too. I'm just not going to do the part of trying to guess where you're getting your claims and beliefs from.

I'm not sure what part of that Jesus is so broken up about tbh 🤣

[–] Hawanja@lemmy.world 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Now that you’ve finally done your homework, presented the sources of your beliefs for me to examine, like I told you to do about seven times, I will happily go through them, since you are no longer trying to make me go on a wild goose chase hunting down every random internet user with something negative to say about the USSR.

The whole point, since the begining, was to get you to do additional reading beyond what is presented to you. You know, to LEARN ABOUT THE FUCKING SUBJECT.
But you don't actually care about the subject, do you? Because you only give a shit about defending your ideology, and not about the truth about what actually happened. This is why you're always going to lose, because you're dishonest, and I have no patience for people who are dishonest.

Edit: Jesus fucking wept.

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 weeks ago

That's not being "dishonest" that's just how debates work. You seem to be reading an incredible amount of things into the fact that I wouldn't do your homework for you.

Although, you had already decided you knew all sorts of things about me from your first comment. Since you had already made up your mind, there was never any way for me to change that.

But I will say, I appreciate that you did finally do your homework. It will be nice to have those sources if I ever need to refute similar claims in the future.