this post was submitted on 21 Sep 2025
1 points (100.0% liked)

Lemmy.ca's Main Community

4100 readers
1 users here now


Welcome to the lemmy.ca/c/main community!

All new users on lemmy.ca are automatically subscribed to this community, so this is the place to read announcements, make suggestions, and chat about the goings-on of lemmy.ca.

For support requests specific to lemmy.ca, you can use !lemmy_ca_support@lemmy.ca.


founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] MyBrainHurts@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago (28 children)

No. Hearing and understanding opinions with which we disagree is part of being a functional adult.

If we end up having a situation where they spam with hate speech etc, that's different but just being conservative? I'd like to hear what they have to say.

John Stuart Mills put it better than I can:

He who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side; if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion.

[–] RelativityRanger@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Mills didn't live through fucking First and Second World War.

Less well known is the paradox of tolerance : Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies ; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most imwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force ; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument ; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself out- side the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

Popper, Karl R. The Open Society and Its Enemies: Volume 1, The Spell of Plato. Routledge, 1945

[–] MyBrainHurts@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago (2 children)

If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant

Allowing people to hear different opinions is not unlimited tolerance.

[–] Typhoonigator@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Is that the only thing you can rebut out of all of that?

[–] MyBrainHurts@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago (5 children)

It is the only relevant part.

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] hdnclr@beehaw.org 0 points 7 months ago (8 children)

Allowing a MAGA forum to coexist here isn't simply allowing "differing opinions" - their "opinion" is known, and it invariably moves us up the rungs on the ladder toward genocide. I say this as someone whose own parents are in the MAGA cult: defederate. Don't allow that ideology to fester in your community. Have individual discussions with the people in your own life to pull them back from the brink, if you feel safe doing so, but don't allow that growth in the petri dish that is your collective, or you will wake up with an infection. Set boundaries or get taken over.

load more comments (8 replies)
[–] Broadfern@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

MAGA and “just conservative” are not the same.

Self-labeling as MAGA is denoting full cult of personality and fealty to Trump. Add the online-ness element, plus the small size of Lemmy in general, and you’re concentrating that presence into a toxic sludge that seeps into the rest of the fediverse a la 4chan/Xhitter trolls.

“MAGA” is not going to change their minds on anything, nor are they looking to meaningfully change ours. MAGA does not argue in good faith, or based on rationality or policy. Red-hatters enter non-red-hat spaces for the purposes of intimidation, feeling superior, and sowing discord. Then they pat each other on the back for “owning the libs” and continue the cycle.

It’s perfectly reasonable to not want to federate with relentless trolling and become a Nazi bar by means of association.

[–] MyBrainHurts@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Red-hatters enter non-red-hat spaces for the purposes of intimidation, feeling superior, and sowing discord. Then they pat each other on the back for “owning the libs” and continue the cycle.

It’s perfectly reasonable to not want to federate with relentless trolling and become a Nazi bar by means of association.

Declaring what they'll do before they've done it is pretty silly. Sure, if that instance starts becoming a problem, defederate. But maybe we can hope for the best first?

[–] floofloof@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I respect your point, but 10 years into MAGA's relentlessly obnoxious online behaviour it seems a little naïve to think it's at all likely to go differently there.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Archangel1313@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

You know they're just going to ban anyone who goes in there, that isn't MAGA, right?

[–] MyBrainHurts@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago

I dunno, a quick look through the admin seemed like they were open to stuff with which they disagree. (Looks like one of us was already there trolling and the admin seems to have responded in good faith.)

[–] drzoidberg@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago

Why should anyone be forced to listen to Nazi bullshit. Fuck magats. Nazis have only one place in the world, 6 feet under.

[–] ScoffingLizard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

The downvotes here are stupid. I have a conservative friend and we always ask each other questions about why each side feels one way or another. It is a good way to find common ground. It is also a good way to understand what is going on.

[–] dom@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Is your conservative friend part of a hate cult?

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] owenfromcanada@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago (3 children)

The quote from Mills assumes the "other side" has reasons, or is willing to argue in good faith.

I have no problem with conservative communities. MAGA isn't just a conservative community, it's a hate-driven cult. We already know their reasons, they have nothing else to contribute to a meaningful discourse.

[–] MyBrainHurts@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

it’s a hate-driven cult. We already know their reasons, they have nothing else to contribute to a meaningful discourse.

You know, they say much the same about us.

Almost like the way to resolve the situation is actual dialogue rather than just seeing the worst of each side getting thrown up on social media.

For every asshole in MAGA gear that we take as a fair representation of the group, there's some kid talking about how the only good MAGA person is six feet under and making it look like everyone on the Left is ready to kill anyone who disagrees with them.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I don't think in our context the point would be to seriously consider the other side. Rather to hear what they're on about at the moment purely informatively. But if most don't want that the rest could use alts to check on the crazies.

[–] ordnance_qf_17_pounder@reddthat.com 0 points 7 months ago (4 children)

I'm so bored of this "but we need to listen to the opposing view" bullshit. We know what the maga fascists think, we will learn nothing new by putting up with their crap.

[–] stardust@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago

And we've seen two times what listening to maga and giving people like that a platform to discuss results in. Trump being elected twice and maybe a third in the future.

We have actual real world events of how ineffective it is with networks giving Trump huge coverage when he first appeared.

[–] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago

Yep. That titanic has sailed.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

The 1990’s called and want to know if you’ll be a guest on Rush Limbaugh. You won’t actually get to say anything, so no pressure.

[–] MyBrainHurts@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Sure. Any chance to get his audience to hear an alternative version. The number of conservatives with whom I chat in real life who have just never heard of various things kind of blows me away. My good buddy was on the "yeah but the Left is more violent" train, we talked about it, I showed him things he hadn't seen and vice versa. We both learned, grew and revised our opinions.

Same thing could happen for Rush's audience.

[–] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

You’re expecting good faith then. Like talking with a good buddy.

[–] MyBrainHurts@lemmy.ca 0 points 7 months ago (10 children)

No, I'm just confident in the power of reality and facts. It's why I admire Pete Buttigieg for going on and making the Liberal case on Fox news. We're not converting anyone who disagrees with us here.

load more comments (10 replies)
load more comments (21 replies)