Luigi Mangione’s state murder trial postponed indefinitely amid double jeopardy fight : luigimangione

[–] ChicoSuave@lemmy.world 112 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg’s office said in a statement that it would fight efforts to end the state case, in part because Mangione’s federal sentence isn’t yet known.

Compared with federal law and that of other states, New York has uncommonly strong protections for defendants facing multiple prosecutions. A state prosecution can be barred if a federal case involving the same course of conduct or criminal transaction ends in a guilty plea or if a jury is sworn.

Pleading guilty was some deep strategy by his team. It's going to be so fucking hilarious when he gets off state charges because of double jeopardy.

[–] unitedwithme@lemmy.today 35 points 6 days ago

Maybe that's why they were so quick to reverse course on the insanity plea or whatever.

[–] Airfried@piefed.social 68 points 6 days ago (20 children)

My god they're going to imprison the poor guy forever without a trial, won't they?

[–] AngryRedHerring@lemmy.world 29 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

The feds didn't get him on murder. My first thought when I saw this is that he has very clever defense attorneys that at least managed to frustrate the state prosecutors by having him plead to a federal non-murder charge that could shut down the State murder case through double jeopardy.

I can't remember any other time in my life that I've been hoping somebody would get off on a technicality

[–] Hueristic_Autistic@lemmy.world 21 points 6 days ago

As a conspiracy theorist: The bigger question is, I wonder what they're distracting us from this week? They're gonna hold him to use his presence as a distraction when they need one. Other than that, he is a suspected murderer and they'll use that as the official reason for holding him but we all know, deep down inside, he's now a tool to be used to distract us.

So we should all be asking the questions: Who are we invading this week? Where's the next biggest arsenal shipment heading? Who's going to be teaming up with Israel this week? Is Germany teaming up with Israel the will of the US or is it defeatism?

What is going on that they just plopped him into the news?

[–] ArmchairAce1944@discuss.online 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

They cannot do that. If they aren't going to try him, they must release him.

[–] Etterra@discuss.online 26 points 6 days ago

You must be new here. That's not how the American ~~justice~~ punishment system works.

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[–] ScoffingLizard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 75 points 6 days ago

The rich fear jury nullification will encourage more justice, so they made up some bullshit.

[–] CalypsoGirl@lemmy.today 19 points 6 days ago

So meanwhile, has he gotten the healthcare yet that United denied him?? Let us not forget that was the impetus of his prison martyrdom.

[–] ApollosArrow@lemmy.world 38 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Well, this man will never be tried.

[–] Makhno@lemmy.world 37 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Good. He did nothing wrong

[–] Rothe@piefed.social 17 points 6 days ago

But he will also be stuck as prisoner of this farce of a justice system for ever.

[–] Dialectical_Specialist@quokk.au 32 points 6 days ago (2 children)

What does this mean for the non-lawyers still curious?

[–] vrek@programming.dev 68 points 6 days ago (1 children)

It means he gets double points if he guesses the right question based on the answer

[–] Dialectical_Specialist@quokk.au 10 points 6 days ago (2 children)

This is the half I do know and also why I'm still lost!🤬

[–] I_Fart_Glitter@lemmy.world 28 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Double jeopardy is being charged with the same crime twice.

His lawyers are arguing that because he has already pled guilty to the federal charges of “interstate stalking resulting in death,” and “cyber stalking resulting in death” that the state charges of second degree murder, weapons possession and false identification should be dismissed.

The state prosecutors are arguing that the state charges are different enough that they should be allowed to go forward with the state trial as well.

Usually all the parts of a single crime that result in separate charges count as the same incident for purposes of double jeopardy.

[–] kingofras@lemmy.world 17 points 6 days ago

Orange hater here: it’s worth pointing out that the federal charges came after the pedopres put pressure on the DOJ to ensure that there would be federal charges on top of the state charges.

Anything the orange turd touches dies.

[–] vrek@programming.dev 10 points 6 days ago (1 children)

The honest answer is basically you can't be tried twice for the same crime. Say someone is found dead, the police think you did it, you go on trial and found innocent, the police can't just put you on another trial hoping for a different verdict.

[–] VonReposti@feddit.dk 3 points 6 days ago (2 children)

What about appeals? In my country you will usually start your case in the city court and can appeal the result to the state court. If it is a special case without clear precedent, you can get approval to try your case at the supreme court. In some edge cases city courts might say you have to start in the state court, but you always get at least one appeal. In very special cases a city court might say you have to start in the state court, but then you can still appeal to the supreme court without approval.

It is not rare for a higher court to reverse the verdict of a lower court completely if the higher court interpreted the law differently. In that case the lower courts will use that as precedence for future cases whether it will be a reversal of the guilty verdict or the punishment.

[–] michaelmrose@lemmy.world 8 points 6 days ago (1 children)

In America you can't appeal someone being found not guilty you only appeal a guilty verdict

[–] VonReposti@feddit.dk 4 points 6 days ago (3 children)

Huh weird, TIL. In Denmark both the prosecution and the defence can appeal any verdict/punishment. But you only have 14 days to decide whether you want to appeal.

[–] jj4211@lemmy.world 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

In the US, the prosecution can appeal sentencing and pre-trial, but once you get to 'not guilty' or 'guilty', all prosecution associated with a crime is no longer constitutional.

However, you can get a civil trial after a not-guilty criminal trial (OJ Simpson was 'not guilty' in criminal court and became untouchable, but was found to have killed under civil court and had to pay the victims families).

From a prosecution perspective, the federal charges were a huge mistake. Nothing about the crime qualified it as 'federal homicide', so they had to settle for lesser charges. Normally the DOJ would back off and let the state handle it because it firmly falls in their jurisdiction, but of course this DOJ wanted to throw its weight around and it backfired on them.

[–] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

Civil courts also have a much lower bar for evidence, only requiring it be more likely than not that you're at fault, while criminal courts demand the jury be all but certain you're guilty

[–] osanna@lemmy.vg 4 points 6 days ago

same in australia.

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[–] vrek@programming.dev 5 points 6 days ago (2 children)

As the accused you can appeal. So if you found guilty and then there is new evidence, better science, an impartial jury etc you can appeal and argue you are innocent. But if you are found innocent the state can't do the same.

Let's say there's a murder 5 years before dna evidence is discovered. The state accuses someone and puts them on trial and a verdict is declared. Now dna evidence is discovered. If the person was found guilty they can file an appeal saying based on this new dna evidence they can prove they are are innocent. If the person was found innocent however the state can not file an appeal saying based on this new DNA evidence now we can prove that person did it.

State gets one shot at proving you guilty, you get multiple to prove you're innocent.

[–] sukhmel@programming.dev 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

State gets one shot at proving you guilty, you get multiple to prove you're innocent.

To be fair, this sounds better than it works, as your appeal may take a lot of time to actually free you, even after the appeal is successful

[–] vrek@programming.dev 4 points 6 days ago

100% true but I was trying to explain the idea of double jeopardy then he brought up appeals so briefly tried to explain how that works

[–] yetAnotherUser@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

It's the same here, but the state can appeak the verdict within a certain short period. The verdict is only final once there is no more room for appeals or the period to make an appeal has passed.

[–] vrek@programming.dev 3 points 5 days ago

I am not a lawyer but in the US I believe once the verdict of not guilty is given the state is done. For example the oj Simpson case. Almost everyone agrees he likely did it but the jury gave the verdict not guilty because, according to interviews after, the state didn't provide enough evidence. They can't go back and say "sorry our lawyer was bad at his job, let's do a new trial". He was released and didn't face any criminal charges for the murder. Fun fact the Kardashians initially got famous/rich because the original father was one of oj's defense attorneys. Now they family of the victim later sued for emotional damage and won and he was also later arrested for other crimes but the criminal case of him killing his wife could/can't ever go back on trial.

[–] ephrin@sh.itjust.works 20 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

Can’t be tried for the same crime twice. So if he pleads guilty in federal court then he can’t be tried again in state court.

[–] fox2263@lemmy.world 3 points 6 days ago (3 children)

Didn’t the feds want him so to a death sentence though?

[–] eggpl4nt@lemmy.world 13 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Any death penalty charges were thrown out a while ago iirc. I think life in prison is the max he can get now.

[–] FundMECFS@piefed.zip 5 points 6 days ago

And sentencing guidelines suggest 25-30 years for what he plead guilty too.

So if he gets the guideline amount, good behaviour in prison, and state case dropped, could easily be walking free in his early 50s.

Probably a smart play by him tbh. Plus federal prisons tend to be much less horrible conditions than state prisons.

[–] jj4211@lemmy.world 6 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Problem is that the crime didn't fit any of the criteria for federal homicide, so they had to settle for lesser charges if they wanted to pursue it as a federal case. A more strategic DOJ probably would have let the state handle it, since it was by all measures the core of the incident would have been a state crime rather than federal.

[–] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 3 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

The ~~crime~~ charges they had evidence for. The feds fucked up the evidence.

[–] jj4211@lemmy.world 3 points 6 days ago

Even with evidence, murder is usually a state matter, with very specific circumstances required for it to be federal. It didn't meet those criteria.

[–] Tollana1234567@lemmy.today 3 points 6 days ago

Bondi tried to encourage it.

[–] bluelabel@lemmy.world 17 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Confused here.

So it's to plead guilty to a lesser sentence, so in attempt to void the same crime with a heavier sentence?

[–] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 10 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Pretty much ya. Specifically because the state murder charges are in NY. This wouldn't fly everywhere.