this post was submitted on 14 May 2024
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Is the Tower of Babel still affecting us or something?

Edit:

We have 8 billion people, yet the best we could muster for the most total speakers of a language is under 2 billion, including non-natives...

  1. English (1,452 million speakers) First language: 372.9 million Total speakers: 1.4+ billion According to Ethnologue, English is the most-spoken language in the world including native and non-native speakers.

https://www.berlitz.com/blog/most-spoken-languages-world#%3A%7E%3Atext=1.%2CEnglish+%281%2C452+million+speakers%29&text=According+to+Ethnologue%2C+English+is%2Cnative+and+non-native+speakers.

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[–] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You need a reason for a large group to choose to maintain a single language over over smaller groups creating their own.

Look at Latin, it stayed mainly cohesive due to the Roman Empire and splintered off as the empire collapsed and the necessity for commoners to maintain communication across thousands of miles dwindled.

English is the current lingua francia because the dominant nation has been speaking English for the past two hundred years and created a pop culture market that is both large and rich, creating a positive feedback loop making the market larger and richer.

[–] moon@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Erin accidentally created a new universe.

[–] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club -1 points 2 years ago

I mentioned the bloody imperialism in the first half of the sentence.

[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (3 children)

For a tiny language, I really like toki pona, but it's meant to be a minimal artistic language, more than an IAL (international auxiliary language).

Last I checked tho, Globasa looks really interesting. The way that they add new vocabulary, and have a good representation of world languages, seems to work well.

Esperanto is also good, but when my partner tried to learn it, they were weirded out by some of it's quirks, like noun declinations based on whether it's a subject or object, that seems unecessary.

[–] mamotromico@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago

When I was a teen I really wanted to learn Esperanto but never got around to it. Globasa seems extremely interesting though, maybe I’ll finally give one of these languages a try.

[–] senloke@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 2 years ago

Esperanto is also good, but when my partner tried to learn it, they were weirded out by some of it’s quirks, like noun declinations based on whether it’s a subject or object, that seems unecessary.

That sounds interesting. Esperanto has no noun-declinations, it's an agglutinating language, you don't bend words (= declination).

But what is barely resembling that what you mention is the two cases of the language, which is nominative and the so called "accusative". Which is adding -n to words to make them an object, depending on whether the verb of the sentence needs one or not. This case also is not just for objects, but also for directions, for measurements and time. That combination normally confuses the heck out of people.

Which is why there is also an in-joke in the Esperanto community "don't forget the accusative", because people forget it or apply it too often.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yeah I feel that for better or worse Esperanto hasn’t reached a large enough mass to justify accepting its quirks and indo-eurocentrism, when we know we can do better now.

[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

For sure. A dissapointing number of IALs have nearly all their vocab from european languages, but there are a few that try earnestly to source their vocab from a wide set of language families. Any global initiative for an IAL needs to have a global vocabulary set to have any hopes of being introduced.

[–] frightful_hobgoblin@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

If you choose vocabulary that is culturally neutral, then that vocabulary is not easily recognisable.

There's no workaround for that trade-off.

[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Recognizeable for whom, is the question. The majority of IALs to date have had a highly eurocentric vocabulary, so they can't be recognizeable to even a plurality of the world.

[–] frightful_hobgoblin@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Correct reasoning, incorrect facts.

46% of the world speak Indo-European languages as a mother tongue.

Can't do better than that. No other option comes close.

[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Aren't you Irish? You know the English colonizers did their best to wipe out the Irish language and replace it with the one you're advocating for right???

[–] frightful_hobgoblin@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago

I never said anything approaching the words your putting in my mouth.

[–] frightful_hobgoblin@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

know the English colonizers did .... right???

Nooo I didn't actually know that and needed an enlightened person such as yourself to tell me 🙄🙄

Tá mé tinn de bheith ag glacadh comhairle stráinséara. Imagine some blan started lecturing you about haitian history and how it should affect your opinions, wouldn't you at least tell them to fuck off?

[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago

Kind of wild that you use Haiti as an example here, considering the european genocide of the Taino people, as well as the european importation of african slaves, two groups that didn't speak european languages, and had their languages erased by the same process you're advocating for.

[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

So why are you advocating for the displacement of the majority of the world's language families based on european languages popularity it gained through colonial displacement?

The majority of the world don't speak european languages.

[–] frightful_hobgoblin@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

So why are you advocating for the displacement of the majority of the world’s language families based on european languages popularity it gained through colonial displacement?

Same reason you are advocating wife-beating (i.e. I never said anything like that)

The majority of the world don’t speak european languages.

Correct. That's was our starting point: there's no language that the majority of the world do speak.

Indo-European is spoken by a 46% minority.

About 19% of the world's population speak the Indo-Iranian branch alone. It's by far the largest of the 8 branches by number of speakers. By number of languages (which includes tiny languages) it comprises about ⅔ of the family –

For example there are 884 million speakers of Hindi/Urdu + Bengali + Marathi + Gujarati + Odia + Punjabi in India, and Pakistan is almost all Indo-European (Indo-Aryan and Iranic).

Agus in theannta sin, tá Gaeilge (teanga Ind-Eorpach/Ceiltís) ag 0.0002125% den daonra domhanda!

[–] Kalkaline@leminal.space 1 points 2 years ago

Kial ne esperanto?

[–] weeeeum@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

Because for most of modern history, we were very isolated from the "outside world".

Other than the last 200 years, the best "internet" was a dude on a horse. Since groups of humans developed quite independently of each other, they developed their own languages. However in the modern age this is changing rapidly, with many languages and dialects coalescing into one, consistent, language. Additionally many countries have tons of English speakers which is a defacto "universal language". Most big cities will have english translation for many signs and important documents.

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 1 points 2 years ago

That's not how language or communication work. Humans develop language in real time and in small cohorts. You are lucky if you can understand youth slang by the time you hit 40 and you want to force an artificial lingua franca on four billion people?

Plus, who said language uniformity is a positive? Linguistic diversity is a feature, not a bug. Language is tied to culture, identity and a whole bunch of antrhopological elements. Entire ethnicities are defined by their language. It's bad enough that US cultural imperialism has forced half the planet to watch the same movies and TV shows, why would we do the same with language? If you ask me, there's way too much English out there as it is.

[–] mayo_cider@hexbear.net 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Every time this was attempted we chose the language of the worst colonizer at that time

[–] huf@hexbear.net 1 points 2 years ago

"chose". learning the language of the worst colonizer of your time's always been economically advantageous

[–] happybadger@hexbear.net 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I really like esperanto as a project: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto

It had a lot of support with early 20th century anarchists who saw it as a way to make people less nationalistic and prone to their domestic propaganda.

[–] tacostrange@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Maybe it's Interlingua. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlingua Most people who speak a latin based language already understand interlingua. That would be the best chance of getting a majority of the world on the same language. It would include a big part of Europe, all of South and Central America and half of North America

[–] happybadger@hexbear.net 1 points 2 years ago

Interlingua: Da nos hodie nostre pan quotidian,

Esperanto: Nian panon ĉiutagan donu al ni hodiaŭ

English: Give us this day our daily bread;

We have our choice between Spanish Latin, Romanian Latin, or super complicated Latin that contradicts itself and absorbed things from everywhere at random.

[–] Xantar@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I'd argue that by your own criteria, English is that language.

[–] Lemmygradwontallowme@hexbear.net 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

There's like 1.2 billion English speakers, including non-native speakers, tho? the OP asks for like 3.5 billion or somethin'.... since population globally is 8 billion...