this post was submitted on 15 Apr 2025
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Flippanarchy
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No shaming people for being anti-electoralism. This should be obvious from the above point but apparently we need to make it obvious to the turbolibs who can't control themselves. You have the rest of lemmy to moralize.
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No single thing alone will fix the world. Voting alone won't fix it. Throwing a molotov alone won't fix it.
Voting (in many places, for many people) takes almost no effort. Go do it. But don't call it a day and think you've done everything you can do. Refusing to vote just yields one of the many fronts in this conflict without a fight.
Voting (in many places, for many people) takes almost no effort
The voting apparatus takes immense effort in fact. It takes so much effort that it's almost all consuming for most nations during the election period and wastes thousands of human-workhours.
I meant the amount of effort it takes for the end user.
If we're going to talk about higher order levels of effort, then everything gets very expensive very quickly.
Perfectly true.
But anarchism hasn't exactly been very productive over the last century when it comes to providing alternatives, has it?
Who said anything about anarchism? I'd be happy to just get democracy back.
I’d be happy to just get democracy back.
When did we have democracy?
Depends on you threshold but we have had it for a while. No need to spend money on elections or news media if we didn't have a democracy.
Depends on you threshold but we have had it for a while
Getting to "choose" which pack of political racketeers gets to be the public face of capitalist looting and pillaging falls outside my threshold... which means that we've never had anything that can be called "democracy" with a straight face.
If we accept the liberals' definition of democracy we might just as well accept the tankie's definition of socialism, too - both are equally warped and vile.
Ok then, using your metrics we never had democracy. Using my metrics we had democracy, and I would prefer that to fascism.
But I also like stronger democracy. So if we can make improvements I'm all for it.
If I were (as a thought exercise) to consider your metrics for democracy valid, I'd have to enquire as to what the point of democracy even is if it comes with fascism as a built-in feature - which, of course, is perfectly acceptable if we were to use your metrics.
And that's before we even get into the nitty gritty of how your metrics of democracy solves the fundamentally violent and fundamentally irreconcilable incompatibility between democratic values and the capitalist mode of production.
Why are you mad at me? All I am saying is what we have right now is worse than what we had last year and I would like that back at the very least. I never said that what we had a year ago would solve all the problems or was the ideal government or the best form of democracy.
Why are you mad at me?
Ummm... I'm not mad at you.
I'm trying to show you that you aren't asking to get democracy back (because that's something you never had).
What you are asking for is to have the "good cop" back - the very "good cop" that is right now busy handing you over to the bad one.
So we are just arguing over the definition of Democracy? I think we have to agree to disagree here. I don't think I care enough to have a deep discussion with you about that.
I don’t think I care enough
You don't care to find out if the thing you have been calling "democracy" your entire life even qualifies as democratic?
Fair enough, I guess - maybe the people calling themselves "democrats" not lifting a finger to stop fascism hasn't convinced you to question the lies these very same people have been selling you since birth... but that could never be me.
Yeah, I definitely don't care enough to discuss it with you. Have you read what you have posted? You sound like the least reasonable person to discuss this with. You aren't even engaging with what I have posted, you are just activated by the fact that my definition isn't exactly your definition. Go argue about nothing with someone who cares, I am not into this kink.
If all you want is to have the "good" cop to come back, and to be subject to the carrot instead of the stick - fine. You do you.
But is it too much to ask for you to simply be honest about it?
What are you talking about? Literally this whole thread started with me pointing out. It's worse now than it was last year. I never said it was the best situation last year. What do you mean talking about Good cop? I have been honest.
You do realize that calling what we had before Trumps second term a democracy does not mean that. I think it's the best right?
What do you mean talking about Good cop?
What did you think the relationship between liberalism and fascism is? Good cop - bad cop. Carrot - stick. I'll ELI5 it for you - when liberal lies ceases to protect the status quo, they stand aside and allow the fascists to take over and protect the status quo through unbridled state violence.
Did you notice how the COVID pandemice highlighted the class divisions between the billionaire parasites and the rest of us? Did you notice how the decades-old liberal propaganda machine surrounding Israel came crashing down just recently?
Do you see the lies starting to fail?
You - and the rest of us - are now stuck watching the "stand aside" part of the process in action. This means... no - we can't go back to what was last year, or before 2016, or any time before this. And no, we cannot "strengthen" democracy because we never had any to begin with. What we had was a piss-poor democracy-knockoff which, anti-democratic as it fundamentally was, is now seen as unnecessary by our political establishments and it's billionaire handlers - if Trump and his myrmidions' behaviour hasn't clued you in to that by now I don't know what will.
Ah, thanks. I never heard that reference before in regards to fascism and liberalism.
But I'm not a liberal. I'm a leftist.
Also I never said it was possible to go back. I just said it was better back then compared to now.
Anarchists saved and improved countless lives in the last few years by doing direct action. They rescue(d) and support(ed) refugees, fed people all over the world, setup bail funds and so much more.
Actually impacting other peoples lives (and your oen) directly is a pretty appealing alternative imo.
They rescue(d) and support(ed) refugees, fed people all over the world, setup bail funds and so much more.
This is all great - but lots of organizations and movements are doing direct action of all kinds. Can you seriously tell me that this represents a functional political movement that would be capable of surviving and thriving if a convulsive revolution were to kick off tomorrow?
We could've.
You think the 90M people that couldn’t be bothered to vote against fascism are going to take to the streets and fight?
Electoral voting is useless and built to disenfranchise and demotivate people participating from politics. Doing direct action immediately improves your life and builds mutual aid networks. So yes.
It’s useless, yet it’s exactly why we have a fascist dictator? That’s tautological.
You would get a fascist dictator regardless. That has always been the inevitable path of liberal electoral politics under capitalism.
Ah, defeatism. It’s going to happen anyway, so why bother doing anything about it. Great outlook.
They aren't saying do nothing, they're saying do something more useful than voting.
Don't put words in my mouth. I suggest the opposite of "doing nothing". Voting is doing nothing every 4 years and expecting things to improve in the face of 100 years of evidence to the contrary.
I insist that you’re incorrect, based on the simple fact that 77M people voted for a fascist dictator and now we have a fascist dictator. Clearly voting does something, or we wouldn’t have a fascist dictator for president.
Everyone agitating for an overthrow of the system through memes is going to get out there and start doing it any day now just you wait...
Aaaaaaaany day now...
True. What works best is being a smug "nothing ever happens" lib online and doing one political action every 4 years.
Oh, I see the psyop is hard at work already. "No, don't vote, it's useless, don't even bother, leave it to those suckers who are doing this stupid ineffective voting thing. Oh, they have all the power all of the sudden? Who knew, no idea how that happened"
Don't badjacket. Just because we don't believe in the electoral farce doesn't make us a paid actor.
That's true, some people repeat the same points for free. This is also bad, it leads to bad outcomes.
100+ years of electoralism and you ended up in fascism anyway. Talk about bad outcomes.
Fascism, the ultimate form of antielectoralism, is winning, yes. And instead of fighting it, the most passionate groups of left-leaning people are obsessed with not doing the bare minimum to stop it.
Pretty much. The left can’t be bothered by pragmatism and is blinded by perfectionism. It boggles my mind how the political side who should be the go to for most of the population can’t make politics.
Apathy is what got us here