Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.
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Pepperidge Farm Remembers when the FIDO Alliance threatened to recommend the blocking of FOSS implemententions because they gave the users control. Control over backing up. Control over not using biometrics.
When something wants too much power, you must avoid.
FIDO 2 level 2 also requires the supply chain documented and a bunch of expensive certificates, which locks small vendors and open hardware implememtations out.
If your security relies on a password, you will always be anxious that somebody, somewhere, has somehow figured out what it is and already has access to your bank account.
No I won't. All my passwords are something like I0!2b6KJ!eA04WiJ&&MFToCQ7CN*4mvb and each is used for only one thing because I've been using a password manager for over a decade.
I0!2b6KJ!eA04WiJ&&MFToCQ7CN*4mvb
Mwahahaa, I'm in
I switched to using a password manager last year that scrambles all of my passwords like how you describe, and hot damn is it nice, both in terms of security and convenience.
This is some weird doom and gloom take on a real improvement in public security that we don't see very often. Of course there are a lot of stake holders. Of course every protocol is complicated. I run security for a company, and my auth systems mandate attested (i.e., company-provided) hardware keys. You're not using a passkey on my systems that I'm not providing you. Pretty simple concept, yes?
Do you have any examples of any public service requiring attested keys? No, because it really doesn't make sense. But because the protocol supports it, people shouldnt use passkeys? Shitty hot take.
I agree it would be helpful to make the feature set clearer to the end user, but the UX are still a mess across OS and websites. IMO that's not a reason to not use them.
Passkeys are much more phishing resistant. They apply unqiue-credential best practices. I've been managing unique passwords for decades, and passkeys are a great improvement. Very few companies are going to completely remove other forms of auth, and so suggesting passkeys are ruining people's ability to share passwords is really premature. And even so, companies have been pursuing other strategies for identifying shared accounts much more effectively than shared credentials. Thinking that's a reason to not use passkeys just tells me you aren't valuing how passkeys elevate public opsec.
Passkeys are projected to overcome TOTP market share next year. That is honestly amazing. I like the writeup on the features, but this nefarious, conspiratorial narrative doesn't fit what's actually happening.
My background is very much not in this world so caveat my questions/response below with that mind set. I do however try to practice decent personal opsec such 2fa (TOTP), password manager with random generation, etc.
I feel like a lot of what you stated was covered in the article. For example the article states that problem isn't the number of stakeholders, it's that none of them are consumer advocacy groups.
I understand that the author maybe leaned on the password sharing example too much but I think that was in an effort to present the material in a friendlier manner to the average reader. The closing statement makes it clear it's not really about Netflix, etc. The main concern is that attested passkey requirement will now be the easiest way to force specific software and hardware upon user. The GraphenOS example is a good one.
You might not use the attested flag in that manner but I have zero doubt that once passkey adoption rate passes a certain threshold Google will be more than glad to miss-use that flag to lock people out of their gmail account unless they have the most recent phone and software.
Do you have any examples of any public service requiring attested keys? No, because it really doesn't make sense. But because the protocol supports it, people shouldnt use passkeys? Shitty hot take.
I think this is a bad take. "Because this potential is not being misused right now it won't be a problem in the future" has not really served us well thus far.
My understanding is that the article is saying that passkeys are giving away too much control to the second party. That can and will be abused.
But again, layman's understanding from my end.
There are lots of reasons to like passkeys from a technical/enterprise standpoint, but I do think you're missing the critical issue the article is speaking to: digital sovereignty.
Passkeys, while more secure in the average usecase, shift the balance of control over your access to services. Yes, you can no longer write your password down on a post-it and leak it in a photo—thats's a good property. But trading that at the expense of your freedom to run software as you see fit on hardware you bought and paid for? For many people, myself included, that's not an acceptable tradeoff. There are plenty of tools and systems around passwords that folks can use to make passwords+2FA match or even exceed the security properties of passkeys.
The thing that should chill everyone is the fact that built into the standard is a switch (given to service providers, not users) that locks out the people that do want to have control of their digital infrastructure. Not everyone can or should be expected to run like that, but they should not be blocked from doing so. Similar with the Right to Repair; not everyone can exercise that right on their own, but no one should be prevented from repairing what they bought.
Similary, I do believe it's my neighbor's right to practice a religion of their choosing. So if the government tries to prevent them from doing that, I'm going to go grab my pitchfork, not because I share their religion, but because they should be able to make that choice. Likewise, while I might not want to exert control over how my credentials are backed up, I still reserve the right to do it, and support anyone else's ability to do it.
And to address the slippery slope objection, I have to point out that this is not particularly theoretical. When Big Tech has provided service providers with the opportunity to enforce restrictions on your device, service providers have used it. Widevine DRM, Google Play Protect, etc.. It's why my LineageOS phone can't use banking apps, which is a shame since some features like Zelle payments are specifically a mobile-only feature, and so I cannot use it anymore. I either run my phone to the exact specs and settings that my bank and Google prefer, or I'm denied access to basic banking anywhere but my desktop (and who knows how long until the block my access there, I run Linux afterall).
I do not trust Big Tech with my devices, and passkeys increase their capability to deny anyone who doesn't buy into their ecosystem, and further entrenches those who already are. I for one find that despicable, and an unacceptable tradeoff. There's no reason it has to be this way though, passkeys could have been the best of both worlds. However, they've been compromised with features that serve platforms at the expense of user freedom. It's the kind of disempowerment that happens when you give the reins to power-hungry, profit-seeking corporations.
Maybe you'll prefer more practical criticism then:
To put it simply, every passkey is locked into a large combination of factors: device + platform (OS) + app + the service being used. It is not trivial and often downright impossible to change any of these factors or to render them agnostic. This makes it complicated or impossible to backup passkeys or make them portable.
It's fine for them to not be portable when they're used on a work phone, running the company mandated OS, authentication app and passkey store, to login into a suite of apps that are also company-approved.
I do need portability and backup as an individual who wants to be able to login into multiple services across multiple apps running on multiple OS on multiple devices. But I can't, because the big tech players (Microsoft/Google/Apple etc.) are actively trying to capture passkeys into their platforms and make it hard to get out in any practical way.
With passwords and TOTP I can run something that will sync them across devices and fill them in into any app in a unified manner (or use copy & paste if all else fails). With passkeys I can't.
This is why I only use passkeys that are stored in my self hosted vault warden. As long as you don't create passkeys locked to a vendor's manager, I don't see any reason to avoid them.
Never used. Each time a website asks me if I want to create one I have this uneasy feeling of not actually owning the key.
That is the issue of passkeys. They are hard to understand and without understanding there can be no trust.
Despite the attention-grabbing headline, the only negative thing I can find in the article about passkeys are this section:
Attested passkeys7 are the last but most important type of passkeys you need to know about. These types of keys use what’s known as remote attestation to cryptographically verify – using the aforementioned tamper-proof cryptoprocessor that lives in all your modern devices – that you are using one of the several approved passkey managers, and not using a custom one that you vibecoded yourself and which can lie.
This is the feature that means you no longer get to make the calls about your passkeys. Fortunately, attested passkeys are not yet required on most websites.
I don't see why we should assume this hypothetical is going to happen. There is a lot of different software that supports passkeys (I use keepass for example), and going against the open standard and forcing all their users to use a specific software would basically make them unusable.
Overall every password / login style has its dangers and bad ways to use it, including passkeys. That doesn't make them "traps".
A lot of platforms will happily not allow people to login with a KeePass passkey. Just like some platforms already no longer let me login with a password and force me to login with a code they send me per email instead.
Also, like, if it doesn't allow me to set up a passkey because my manager or OS is not supported...I guess I'm not setting up a passkey then, which is OK by me, so there is no problem.
Ooohh, don’t think corpos and banks won’t go for that hypothetical. A lot of apps already turn haywire if you have developer options enabled, accessibility options enabled, have a specific installed or using a custom ROM. If the optional attestation is enforced by your bank that they only accept passkeys from google’s password manager or apple passwords, then using something like Keepass or Bitwarden isn’t an option.
Look… I love passkeys. They are convenient and more secure. But if a service cares about on what device and software it was created then it is pointless and just an ecosystem lockdown mechanism.
Ah there's that phrase again, remote attestation. That has very quickly become my least favourite phrase, and I've yet to see an example of it that benefits the end user. I didn't know passkeys supported it but I'll be avoiding them even harder now that I know they do.
I've already been avoiding them because I don't see how there's any security advantage over TOTP unless the passkey is the only way to access the account (which would be awful for account recovery). And the concept of tying my login to a specific device is stupid. I also don't appreciate how many websites keep trying to stealthily create passkeys automatically on login without explaining what they are or letting the user make an informed decision.
I've already been avoiding them because I don't see how there's any security advantage over TOTP...
I'm not going to challenge your choice in using passkey or not. However, I do want to set the "technical record straight": passkey is the successor to TOTP in every technical way*.
TOTP works by having a "shared secret" saved by both you and the place that your authenticating against. This shared secret is then mixed with current time to generate a rotating number that the client shares with the remote server. The remote server does the same calculation, if the rotating numbers match, the user is successfully authenticated.
With TOTP, this means that there are two attack vectors: your device and the remote server. If an attacker is successful in getting the "shared secret" from either, your TOTP is effectively broken.
Passkey works more like ssh-keys. The client generates a public and private keypair. The client only shares the public portion with the remote server and stores the private key locally (or in your password manager).
So the only attack vector (with passkey) is your device (this is often why it's bundled with attestation). Also passkey is not dependant on both the client and server having their time kept in sync. With TOTP, if you have more than ~30 seconds drift between the client and server, they will be generating different rotating codes and never match (which is confusing when you need to explain this to your Grandma).
...unless the passkey is the only way to access the account (which would be awful for account recovery).
Recovery options are never going to go away. With TOTP, you often have one-time use backup codes. Email, SMS recovery etc.
Passkeys mean a spread of enshittification to ever more areas of life. Specifically, they
The recommendation “do not use them” is cute. They are forced on people. I can't choose.
I'm not familiar with any of these limitations that you described. Those might be limitations of the specific credentials manager(s) that you're using. You might want to try a different one.
some of this is disingenuous. For example you’re supposed to make multiple passkeys for your devices so that you can still Access your Accounts even if you lose your Main device (Ofc its still shitty because this forces you into the cloud if you only have 1). Also thats why the passkeys being bound to their „birthplace“ is Not really more of an issue than the others. Also im Not sure where they are forced? In fact i wish it would be more supported in certain apps
Indeed. Every device should get a passkey. Its like client certs where you can lose a device and just remove that passkey from your account. Also, you /can/ store passkeys in pure software. Bitwarden can store passkeys for example. Lots of options for FIDO keys too. I have never heard a non technical person give me a secure password strategy. That is 100% of nontechnical people I have asked use bad password schemes. Passkeys at least enforce a truly randomly generated key.
They still suck at usability but it is an attempt to solve a real problem. Basically the only thing standing between 99% of people and having all their accounts compromised is service password attempt rate limiting.
Passkeys give me anxiety because it's like "Hope you can go the rest of your life without a phone or USB drive getting lost or stolen LMAO"
Zero trust is the end station, if you allow organizations to treat your personal devices as being theirs. Organizations that could actually benefit from the increased security (which isn't Twitter, except for some high-profile individuals, maybe), should provide the user with resources to do so, at their expense (issuing a dedicated TOTP device for example).
But what tends to happen instead, is enshittification of service, while offloading it onto the client. A similar trend can be observed with car parking: where operators remove parking meters, and require the customer to use their device and data plan, to make a payment to the operator...
We've been on this trajectory for quite a while now: from Outlook enforcing IT-policies of email administrators (dictating screen locking requirements as device administration app), to SMS-based 2FA requiring one to have a mobile phone number and tying all to this tamper-resistant identifier. So why not a black box snitch, paid for by the client, further restrict their freedom for "security"?
It seems perfectly in line, and I think this article draws all the right parallels.
So... Uh... What's a passkey? The article is saying they're pure evil. Everyone here is saying they're good. Everyone knows except for me.
What's the difference between a passkey and a password?
Password is a shared secret: When you want me to prove myself, i repeat the password we both know. Both of us could loose that password and it happens every day. Can't go a day without a major data breach news.
passkeys use public-private keys. Anyone can posses the public key, so that is ok to leak. The private key you keep to yourself. When you ask me to prove myself, you hand me a challange which i manipulate with my private key and hand back to you. You check it with the public key and conclude that i am indeed the one that posseses the private key. Mathematical magic! The private key was never shared.
For the user, the password is replaced with a file stored somewhere. Either in your usb security key or in your password manager of choice. Stored in a security key (aka authenticator), the private key never leaves the authenticator and all cryptographic operations are done inside it. The private key can't leak. Amazing! Passkes in a security key are called hardware bound, very secure and nice. The security key, you can plug out and take with you. There are built in hardware like this in phones and computers. But you can't take that with you. That sucks. They only authenticate that device. But you can make any number of passkes for all your devices.
The bad part is that some big corporatins would like to control where and how you can store the passkeys and preferably make it harder for you to escape them. The solution is to not use the services of these malicious corpos.
So in order to log into most websites, you need your username/email address and a password.
You can save your username/password in your web browser or in the cloud.
Sometimes people get lazy and reuse passwords, sometimes people forget their passwords.
Passkey is a replacement for usernames/passwords. It does require that the passkey is saved somewhere, often on your device (in the cloud is possible, but non-standard).
When you "create" a passkey, this passkey is used only at a single place. For example, you'd have a passkey for your bank, another one for your email, another one for Lemmy. You have no say in the matter, that's just how it works.
When you log into a website that has passkey enabled, your passkey/password manager pops up, you click on the passkey and that's it. There is no email address, there is no password, no MFA.
edit: oh, you also asked about the difference between passwords.
It's all about improved security.
You go to certain websites, and they'll only allow a-zA-Z0-9, others require a minimum length of 8 characters, needs 3 symbols (except ! for whatever reason ;)
Then you have no idea how the website is storing your password. Are they encrypting it? Did they do it correctly?
If you look at the number of "breached/leaked" passwords on the internet, it's because it's hard to securely store passwords.
Passkey solves all this. Websites are just given "a public key" and it can be "just stored", no special treatment necessary.
TIL what passkeys are. Thx for sharing.
I've always thought they were a really bad idea. It puts everything into a "setting you have" factor and removes the "something you know as well as the need to match the factor to a username. And if the site is hacked, they can get a lot of information about how the passkeys are generated even if they don't get access to secure info. It just simplifies the ability to hack a random account in many ways if not a specific one.
I evaluate it based on that they replace passwords. Password is shared secret, which is bad. Passkeys are public-private cryptography, which is good. Passwords has to be stored in a password database and your username is gonna be stored alongside it, so you might as well store your passkeys there istead. Passkeys have the added benefit of being possible to store in an authenticators secure storage, like a security key. I see no real downsides, relatively speaking. Passwords that are created by humans, those not using pw managers, are gonna be bad.
With my security key, using FIDO2, i have to have the key, touch the key and enter a PIN. My key is never exposed, signatures happen on device. It's neat!
This is actually a terrible take. Passkeys provide a very large security benefit over passwords and have an open standard.
It’s particularly ridiculous that they seem to think TOTP good passkey bad. They solve the same problem: symmetric persistent encryption like passwords is very weak. TOTP solves this my making it not persisting and passkeys solve this by making it asymmetric. Passkeys are mildly more convenient because you don’t have the copy a code over.
Both also have the same potential for abuse, any service could require you use their specific app. The fact that this article makes it sound like TOTP is a perfect open standard while passkeys are a Trojan horse for abuse is ridiculous. If most services are using the open standard for TOTP why wouldn’t they for passkeys? Also not all services do obey the open standard for TOTP. I’m sure I’m not the only one who was forced to install the duo Authenticator because their institution was somehow sold on their protocol being stronger than the open standard.
TOTP and passkeys are comparable and both with doing.
Both also have the same potential for abuse, any service could require you use their specific app.
That's not true. TOTP is just a mathematical formula for how you mix a "shared secret/seed" with the current time.
In the authors article, they mention that you could write your own python program to generate the correct rotating numbers.
There is no way Big Tech could force you to use a specific app, because at the end of the day, TOTP is just math. 1+1=2, that could be calculated by you, your cellphone, or me - it doesn't matter.
According to the article, Passkeys, on the other hand include a bunch of metadata. For example, can this passkey be copied or moved to another device.
The article is also very clear that all those fields can be faked except attestation.
And for those at home, attestation is a cryptographically secure way for an application to be certain that the application, operating system, and hardware are not modified to work in a way that the OS provider, application, and hardware vendor expect it to.
This has been abused by google/android to prevent/limit people from installing applications outside of the google play store, its been uses to force people to only use google-approved os' (no cfw, no grapheneos). The same technology is a requirement for windows 11 (TPM).
Now, if FIDO agreed to not include attestation as part of the metadata - this would not be a discussion: everyone would love and use passkey, as you (the user) get to decide how to store/backup and (optionally) share this key.
But that's not what FIDO did, the attestation flag is included in the metadata. And the author speculates that once people accept passkey, Big Tech will turn the screws and then start to force how you store your passkeys.
So, in an apocalyptic future "coming soon", when you try to log onto your bank, you'll be greeted with an error:
"We detected that your passkey is stored in the cloud. Your security is important to us. Please, install your new passkey onto your local device using your manufacturers approved Google Android Operating System and Google Approved passkey application."
This is the feature that means you no longer get to make the calls about your passkeys. Fortunately, attested passkeys are not yet required on most websites. But the FIDO Alliance standard makes attestation a part of the passkey ecosystem, whether you want it or not. And even if the website doesn’t require attestation now, simply by using passkeys you indicate to the website that your setup supports the FIDO Alliance’s passkey standard and that you as a user are capable of using passkeys.9 This means that once Twitter (formally X) is satisfied that the overwhelming majority of its users would be unaffected, they can flip the switch – perhaps not all at once, perhaps just for ten thousand users at a time so as not to cause a fuss – and start rejecting non-attested passkeys.
Critically, remote attestation requires the co-operation of your cryptoprocessor, your passkey manager software, your device’s operating system, and your device’s firmware to all pass the remote attestation check. After all, your phone’s operating system has total access to all the 0s and 1s in every app that’s ever run, so it’s not enough for Twitter (formally X) to trust your passkey manager if it can’t even trust your phone’s underlying operating system. If any single one of those things were to fail – say, because your phone stopped receiving security updates so you installed a custom operating system like LineageOS to keep yourself safe without having to buy a new device – then Twitter (formally X) will be able to notice and prevent you from logging in.
Remote attestation can allow them to verify that your device is not capable of, say, sending and receiving encrypted messages, or running a competitor’s app, or using social media without verifying your ID. They don’t want you to be able to turn off the mandatory built-in AI image scanner on your phone that scans everything your phone sees for nudity. (Yes, I’m serious.)
The convenience of using passkeys is a double-edged sword.
This is also one of the ways Playstation stops you from installing Linux and other unauthorised software on the PS5.
As far as I know using a password manager such as KeePassXC or Bitwarden solves all of these problems?
The way i understand it is that remote attestation (main point of this article) makes it possible for services to deny unapproved software. They can deny off market devices, operating systems, or certain password managers. So even if you use password managers you mentioned, if you're using off market OS (e.x lineageos) they can deny access. Here's a quote from the article "Remote attestation lets a website demand cryptographic proof that your device, operating system, firmware, and passkey manager are all on an approved list."
So it’s HDMI for login? Thanks, I hate it.
Please just stop using a service when it gets unbearable. There is no online service you -need- except maybe bank and tax stuff.
dude speaks about not being able to write down his passkey, then he acts like it can only be saved in bigtech clouds, then some random ai rumbling starts about ads being show to us? can you guys stop posting these god damn fearmongering password articles written by ai?
