this post was submitted on 09 Sep 2024
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Google recently rewrote the firmware for protected virtual machines in its Android Virtualization Framework using the Rust programming language and wants you to do the same, assuming you deal with firmware.

In a write-up on Thursday, Android engineers Ivan Lozano and Dominik Maier dig into the technical details of replacing legacy C and C++ code with Rust.

"You'll see how easy it is to boost security with drop-in Rust replacements, and we'll even demonstrate how the Rust toolchain can handle specialized bare-metal targets," said Lozano and Maier.

Easy is not a term commonly heard with regard to a programming language known for its steep learning curve.

Nor is it easy to get C and C++ developers to see the world with Rust-tinted lenses. Just last week, one of the maintainers of the Rust for Linux project - created to work Rust code into the C-based Linux kernel - stepped down, citing resistance from Linux kernel developers.

"Here's the thing, you're not going to force all of us to learn Rust," said a Linux kernel contributor during a lively discussion earlier this year at a conference.

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[–] GetOffMyLan@programming.dev 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Here's the thing, you're not going to force all of us to learn Rust

That seems like a poor attitude imo.

[–] lysdexic@programming.dev 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That seems like a poor attitude imo.

Why do you believe that forcing something onto everyone around you is justifiable? I mean, if what you're pushing is half as good as what you're claiming it to be, wouldn't you be seeing people lining up to jump on the bandwagon?

It's strange how people push tools not based on technical merits and technological traits, but on fads and peer pressure.

[–] GetOffMyLan@programming.dev 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

It is literally being pushed for its technical merits and traits.

Memory safe code with comparable performance in the kernel seems like an absolute no brainer.

Also if you watch the video all he's asking for is consistent interfaces for the file systems. He's not even trying to get them to use rust. And the guy starts screeching about how he'll code however he wants.

Is it wrong to expect a consistent and well documented interface?

Pretty sure C is actually being pushed against its technical merits here.

[–] refalo@programming.dev 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

It's wrong to force it. Most choices in history don't end up with the best one being used. Beta was better than VHS for example. Rust people are very bad at convincing others to try it, and objectively many people just don't want to or don't like it for various reasons.

Personally I highly dislike the syntax. People like familiar things, and to me it's just too different from C++.

If anything I think Swift will be an easier sell when the speed and cross-platform issues are solved.

[–] GetOffMyLan@programming.dev 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I think the point is they aren't forcing it at all. It's being used with the blessing of Linux Jesus and the others are just throwing their toys out of the pram because they don't want to learn it.

Someone else linked the video on this post. They are rude as hell and the rust dev isn't even asking them to use it.

Again I think that's a bad attitude towards technology. Use the best tool for the job and you'd get used to the syntax pretty quickly.

It's like someone who started on python not wanting to learn a c style language.

[–] PushButton@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Get a Foot in the Door

It starts with "no, you don't have to learn it",

to "your changes are breaking Rust stuff, let's waste time together to fix it, else I call it 'bad attitude'"

to "you better make your stuff that way if you don't want to break Rust stuff (and waste your time me)"

to "do it my way, Rust is taking longer to fix and I would have to refactor all the code because of the lifetime cancer"

to the original senior kernel dev saying: "fuck it, I quit, the kernel is such a mess with the Rust BS" ... People don't want you at the party, make your own party with your own friends we don't want you here

It's not complicated.

[–] GetOffMyLan@programming.dev 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I mean I've still yet to hear a reason not to use rust tbf.

But yes that's what working in a team is like.

I have to do stuff at work so I don't fuck over the frontend team. I don't throw a little tantrum about it.

[–] PushButton@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Badgering

I mean I've still yet to hear a reason not to use rust tbf.

You can't take NO as an answer, don't you?

That's bad attitude

Linux is not "work"; you surely don't grasp the reality of the situation here.

And "tbf", the incessant pushing of Rust from people like you is a perfectly fine reason to not use Rust...

[–] GetOffMyLan@programming.dev 0 points 2 years ago

You're unpleasant to talk to.

[–] lowleveldata@programming.dev 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

A valid point tho. Generally it is difficult to ask everybody to learn a new language.

[–] tiredofsametab@fedia.io 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I mean, I work as a software engineering and if I'm not doing continuing ed, be it about architecture, storage, or new languages, I'm going to be of less value in the marketplace. I've learnt languages I didn't particularly want to in the past for work (though I generally came to tolerate or even like some of them. Not lua, though; lua can go to hell).

If Rust truly is the better, safer option, then these people are holding everything back.

[–] wewbull@feddit.uk 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

"learn Rust" in this case is learn it to a level where all of the little behaviour around cross language integrations are understood and security flaws won't be introduced. Expert level.

It's not "I did a pet project over the weekend".

[–] tiredofsametab@fedia.io 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You are correct and I am aware of that. However, it also seems that they both refuse to learn it and refuse to work with people at that expert level based on the recent drama, which seems very much like holding things back to me.

[–] MyNameIsRichard@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago

If you mean the drama I'm thinking off, that seemed to me to be a guy taking on a role that was always going to be 90% political because people are resistant, and sometimes downright hostile, to change and then flouncing off when it was 90% political.