Socialism
An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of "ML" (read: Dengist) influence. This is a place for undogmatic and constructive discussion from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
A certain knowledge of socialism is expected, if you are new to/interested in socialism, please visit c/Socialism101 before participating here. Socialism101 will gladly help you by answering questions, providing resources etc.
Memes go in c/Lefty Memes
Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, upvoting good contributions and downvoting those of low-quality!
Rules
1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith discussion is enforced here.
Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism
2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such,
as well as condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavour.
3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.
That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" (read: Dengist) (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).
4. No Bigotry.
The only dangerous minority is the rich.
5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.
(if you are reading the rules to apply for modding this community, mention "Xenial Xerus" when answering question 2)
6. Don't idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.
7. Absolutely no posts or comments meant to relativize(/apologize for), advocate, promote or defend:
- Racism
- Sexism
- Queerphobia
- Ableism
- Classism
- Rape or assault
- Genocide/ethnic cleansing or (mass) deportations
- Fascism
- (National) chauvinism
- Orientalism
- Colonialism or Imperialism (and their neo- counterparts)
- Zionism
- Religious fundamentalism of any kind
(This is not a definitive list, the spirit of the other rules still counts! Eventual duplicates with other rules are for emphasis.)
view the rest of the comments
You shouldn't just ignore points that are counter to your argument to preserve your current ideas.
I'm not ignoring it, I'm just saying the times when companies will deliberately make a product designed to fail quickly are pretty limited. If Dewalt makes a drill and it shorts out after a year, not only are people not going to buy that drill they are going to start avoiding that brand altogether. Planned obsolescence is basically limited to products where:
-there is an expectation of a short product life -there are steady improvements to the products so people are excited to buy the next new thing once their current product dies -there is some brand loyalty/lock-in so people won't just buy a competitors product
So, this is most famously applicable to smartphones and similar tech. But you will notice that as smartphones start to plateau a bit and people aren't as rabid about buying new ones, repairabikity, durability and long term support are becoming bigger issues. The big brands are advertising how many years they will keep their flagship phones supported, which you never used to see.
So: limited means your point about capitalism not being wasteful still stands? No. Planned obsolescence of any kind means your point is wrong. Capitalism causes waste.
That could be the end of the comment, but not only is your point disproven, but you're wrong about limitations in industry as well.
Printers, incandescent light bulbs, cars.
I had a Nest thermostat before they were bought by Google, which then closed the API and forced people to control it through Google's ecosystem. And soon you won't even be able to do that: https://www.tomsguide.com/home/smart-home/google-announces-end-of-support-for-1st-and-2nd-gen-nest-thermostats-what-you-need-to-know
Hue bulbs discontinued support for their first generation bridge https://www.cnet.com/home/smart-home/philips-hue-is-killing-off-support-for-the-original-hue-bridge/
https://www.androidcentral.com/wearables/older-tizen-os-galaxy-watches-to-loose-support-in-2025
I've been through this bullshit a bunch. Maybe you're lucky you haven't, but the examples aren't nearly as limited as you claim.
Please update your ideas instead of doubling down on ideas you can't support.
Wait so your argument is that if capitalism is ever wasteful, capitalism as a whole is a wasteful ideology?
If a factory in North Korea produces more tractors than the farmers need in order to meet the Dear Leader's quarterly quota, does that make socialism as a whole wasteful?
If I'm a vegan who rides my bicycle everywhere and lives in a tiny apartment, but occasionally like to treat myself to a hot bath, does that make me a wasteful person?
Also, all your examples are the one type of product I already said is susceptible to planned obsolescence, which is quickly iterating consumer tech. Again, fair point, but it's a very small sector of the economy as a whole and already we are seeing movements toward more long-term durable/supportable products.
Incandescent bulbs are not an example of planned obsolescence, it's just an older, inferior technology that is being steadily replaced with a more durable, energy efficient alternative in LED bulbs. Printers are screwy with the expensive ink cartridges but that isn't an example of planned obsolescence either.
Finally, sorry, I'm not going to change my worldview just because you asked nicely.
No, your argument was capitalism isn't wasteful. One counterpoint is enough to disprove that. If you want to say it's less wasteful than some other system, that's a different point and not what you put forth.
Light bulbs: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel
Printers https://www.christopherroosen.com/blog/2022/7/4/printer-toner-planned-obsolescence
If anybody thinks they have a good point while ignoring evidence contrary to it, I think they look like an idiot. Are you doing that? I'm not asking you to change your idea for me, I'm saying you should change your idea because you can't defend it. Or put your head back in the sand, whatever. But you're not really interested in a conversation where your ideas are challenged and you have to consider something beyond "Nuh uh!". (I would be, but you haven't said anything remotely challenging.)